Which chords with the chromatic scale?

Discussion in 'Education' started by Blue, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. muffball

    muffball Ultrasonic

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    Olymoon's earlier post is a good starting point for trying to understand the vast difference with working with the chromatic scale which, arguably, isn't really much of a helpful description since the scale is the entirety of the Western 12-Tet tuning system. There is no root, there are no alternatives. It's everything. Complete freedom.

    Complete freedom sounds great but, in music, that actually presents great difficulty. If you use standard scales you still have complete freedom. They're merely a guideline for you to work within that give you results that are pleasing at the simplest of levels for the vast majority of ears. They give you rules to follow or break (completely) depending on your whim.

    There's no "rule" to do anything in the chromatic scale but, as referenced in Olymoon's post, people have attempted to establish rules or theories to guide chromatic composition. You might find this hinders you or helps you. Music composed in the chromatic scale abiding by these theories can sound like an absolute mess to most people. You need to retrain your ear (or, rather, your brain).

    If you're simply looking for more freedom rather than a reasonably complex walk down a technical path then do as others have suggested and just follow your ear. Don't concern yourself quite so much with following rules once you've learned them. Some of us who have formal education in musical theory and composition may suggest that certain progressions or combinations are "wrong" but you can take that to mean "lazy" or "untrained" and you can just ignore that. We can be pompous asses. I'm trying to undo that myself especially given the fact that my education level isn't supremely high and is somewhat ancient. ;)

    TL;DR If you're simply looking for freedom then follow your ear. If you're looking for technical braintwisting then start with those links and be prepared to clear your mind somewhat.
     
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  2. ICWC

    ICWC Producer

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    I made this piece yesterday:
    https://audiosex.pro/threads/a-chromatic-piece.42571/

    and this is the reduced and compact form of the score in the dense part (almost near the end):

    1.png



    1- It contains all the 12 notes. I'm so curious to know who can analyze it.
    2- Assume you could analyze it, where would its use be in your composition?
    3- There is not a unique way for analysis. How could you be sure that your analysis is undoubtedly correct?
     
  3. Blue

    Blue Platinum Record

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    You're not forced to use the 12 notes in your song.
    You can for example use just 1 note out of key(of a C minor scale for example) during a bridge.
     
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  4. ICWC

    ICWC Producer

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    It was just a simple example for exposing a small subset for chromatic compositions.:wink:
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 5:14 PM
  5. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    Chromatic scale = all 12 notes, if you are using less than 12, it's not chromatic scale, but some of its subsets. Aaaand.. there are really no rules for composing with the whole pitch gamut.
    I suggest listening to gypsy and Indian music, and blues music on youtube for example to get an idea what good chromatic melodies sound like. Then listen to late romantic classical music to get an idea what good chromatic harmony sounds like - see Wagner or very early Schoenberg (not his Atonal stuff - early he had Tonal stuff imitating Wagner and similar that is quite decent).
     
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  6. ICWC

    ICWC Producer

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    :like:
    Listening and grasping the chromatic feeling is one thing but using it in compositions is another one. After that, the other problem (the major one) is the audiences. Vast number of today's audiences don't feel comfortable with the nutty chromatic flavor and prefer to stick to the tonal music and no one can do anything about it.:winker:
     
  7. muffball

    muffball Ultrasonic

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    I don't think that's going to change any time soon. Popular music is almost always extremely "easy" listening and has always been this way. The complex, the bold and the new are for the elite ears. How any of that goes on to make marks in history (take Stravinsky for example) is a process I don't understand but the point is - how much of your desire to make music is influenced by how many people will listen to and like it?

    The only problem with not caring about reaction is that if you're making genuinely bad music that no one likes you won't know. But, then again, who cares?

    You can also do both. Make some ditties for the common ear and make some messes for yourself.
     
  8. NanoBeat

    NanoBeat Ultrasonic

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    There no such thing as chromatic scales within chords.....of course you can use the approach and relate terms or individual notes...all scales are defined by intervals that relate to the chord structure itself..therefore one is a product of the other...chromatic generally sounds shit...but is very useful like others have mentioned in say Jazz and you can make fantastic results...The theory is non important as mostly its not there as you thought and you should always seek to break it...For chromatic scales on guitar say listen to Steve Morse...his approach is unique and he has made it his own...Normally its the melody line over the chord that utilises chromatics but everything is transposable...Also for chromatic melody lines listen to Richie Kotzen...Then you see that it not the chord but the approach to the melody line that important...good luck
     
  9. ICWC

    ICWC Producer

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    Not a good term but I know what you mean.

    I prefer to use "not easily discoverable" rather than mess. Finding the strict disciplines inside a specific composer's scores (if there's such thing) is a tedious task even for professionals let alone the listeners. In chromatic realm, we usually face with the multi-discipline challenges and this variety causes not being able to control the chromatism for everyone.:wink:
     
  10. ICWC

    ICWC Producer

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    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 10:52 PM
  11. muffball

    muffball Ultrasonic

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    I should have put it in italics. It's how the majority will view (hear :P) it even if it's not. Also, chances are, if you're experimenting you will make a lot of mess along the way. A view from one perspective and a metaphor at the same time. Also an excuse. So please excuse me. :)
     
  12. ICWC

    ICWC Producer

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    There's no excuse for such rudeness.:trashing:

    Just kidding...:bleh:
     
  13. NanoBeat

    NanoBeat Ultrasonic

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    Well I think you are right...what makes it special as always is not necessarily the note choice itself but the phrasing and application..is all about dynamics and delivery rather than simple note sequence.....not what you play but how you deliver i guess???
     
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  14. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    The chromatic scale is a key collection which each note in the scale creates a major key .
    The chromatic scale is the point which you begin so rmto speak. Meaning you haven't yet narrowed down your options. All options are available.

    However you can begin by breaking the chromatic scale down into 3 symetrical chords.
    The diminished 7th is the master chord from which all other chords are derived.
    There are 3 dim7 chords in thechromatic scale.
    Bdfg#
    Cd#f#a
    C#ega#
    These 3 dim7 chords are 12 dominant 7 chords .
    And if you learn what they are you can see the connection s of how they are used.

    Let's take the key of c major to begin.
    Cdefgab
    The gbdf is the dominant chord g7
    You have a few alterations available
    Gbdf g# a# c# d#
    Look at b diminished 7th bdfg#
    It's a rootless guys flat 9 gbdfg#

    Now each dim7 is 4 dom7 chords we found the first one g7 what are the other 3 ?

    To find out we must make a quick master chart
    Gbdf g# bdfg#
    G#cd#f#. Cd#f#a
    Ac#eg . C#ega#
    A#dfg# . Dfg#b
    Bd#f#a. D#f#ac
    Cega# . Ega#c#
    C#fg#b . Fg#bd
    Df#ac . F#acd#
    D#ga#c# . Ga#c#e
    Eg#bd . G#bdf
    Facd#. Acd#f#
    F#a#c#e . A#c#eg
    Gbdf . Bdfg#

    Now we can see that b dim7 bdfg# contains 4 dom7 chords
    They are g7 Bb7 .c#7 E7

    Now each one of these 4 dom7 resolve to c major
    Let's taje a ii V I cadence
    Dim7 g7 c6
    Dfac .Gbdf. Cega

    We can swap the g7 with bdim7 bdfg#
    Dfac bdfg# cega

    Next we can put on any of the 4 dom7 chords equal to bdim7 in it's place
     
  15. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Scales are just the tip of the iceberg.
    They only really come into play early on in your studies and not a big part of the music that you end up making .

    Let's say for ex c major scale well here you using scale to mean key in which case each note forms a chord
    Cdefgab c major key
    Ionian cegbdfa
    Dorian dfacegb
    Phrygian egbdfac
    Lydian facegbd
    Mixolydian gbdface
    Aeolian acegbdf
    Locrian bdfaceg

    See the way I listed the modes as chords that's how you use them.

    Next the other use for the word scale is regarding symetrical scales in this case it means key collection which each notes creates a major key.

    Chromatic scale cc#dd#eff#gg#aa#bc
    Whole tone scale f g a b c# d#
    Here a couple examples of key collections
    These are the extent which the term scale is used .
     
  16. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    The thing about music theory is that it is just the scafolding of the music the foundation you learn the ways it all works but the real work is the next step which is phrasing into actually meaning something and creating emotion.

    Let's try an example with the d Dorian mode
    Defgabcd
    Makes it's chord
    Dfacegb

    Okay now make a low dfa triad in bass register
    Now in higher range alternate dfa and egb in their inversions .
    Dfa egb
    Fad gbe
    Add beg
    Make sure you do the triads playing over top the low dfa triad on bottom
     
  17. Blue

    Blue Platinum Record

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    Thanks,now I have a headache untill tonight...:wink:
    It's hard to understand,I need to come back here one more time.
     
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