Still I Can't Understand Upward And Downward Compressor Explain Me In Beginner Way(FF Pro-MB).

Discussion in 'Software' started by Jagul, Oct 6, 2020.

  1. Jagul

    Jagul Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2020
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    2
    Explain me in easy way.
    How input and output results will.
    What it does?

     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2020
  2.  
  3. Plainview

    Plainview Rock Star

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2020
    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    333

     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  4. Jagul

    Jagul Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2020
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    2
    I checked on YouTube but confused
     
  5. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    6,108
    Likes Received:
    4,278
    Location:
    Europe
  6. Jagul

    Jagul Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2020
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yes
     
  7. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    6,108
    Likes Received:
    4,278
    Location:
    Europe
    Oh, then it's going to be a bit difficult to explain, but I'll try.

    With downward compression, which is the normal/usual way of compression, everything below the threshold remains unaltered, eveything above the threshold gets lowered and reduced in level means, it doesn't move as much up and down as before anymore.

    As an example with fictional numbers: the threshold is set to 80, ratio is 4:1. A signal with level 90 (10 above threshold) will result in 82,5, one with level 100 (20 above threshold) in 85.
    This is downward compression.

    For upward compression all values below the threshold are raised, those above it remain the same. 90 remains 90, 100 remains 100.
    For a ratio of 1:1,5 70 (10 below threshold) will result in 75, 60 (20 below threshold) will result in 70.

    Downward compression compresses and lowers the peaks, upward compression raises the low levels and RMS.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Useful Useful x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  8. 5teezo

    5teezo Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,813
    Likes Received:
    974
    How about this?
     
  9. pratyahara

    pratyahara Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2020
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    179
    You just squeeze some gain region of the sound from the lowest gain up to some knee point where the squeezing stops, or you squeeze the highest gain region of the sound from some lower knee point up to the end, choosing the ratio of squeezing in the chosen region.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  10. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    660
    Best Answer
    The stuff you put in those threads is great. For this topic pictures really are worth a thousand words.
    Some more useful words and lovely pictures at this link.
    https://www.blackghostaudio.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-compression

    Agree that it is extremely difficult to condense an explanation into a short post.
    But Hey @No Avenger, you know what everyone is screaming for these days,
    so where is your one sentence version of your answer? No more than 5 words please. :rofl:

    About the maths (tips for the OP)
    Personally, I find it really useful to understand the simple maths for the ratios
    but only for the standard downward compression examples.

    For upward compression, it would be nice if the maths was still useful (and it should be)
    but some caution required....
    If you explore internet articles about upward compression there is huge confusion about how to express ratios.
    You will find people referring to negative ratios e.g., -2:1 and fractional rations e.g., 0.5:1 or 1:2, etc.
    and you will find people completely messing up when these apply to upward compression or expansion; frankly it's a mess.
    That mess is made worse by plugin manufacturers sometimes deciding that it just looks more friendly to use a negative ratio
    when a fractional ratio would be technically more correct.

    Because it's a mess, I now just don't bother thinking about the ratios for upward compression,
    just understand the pictures and you're good to go.
    And that means I now have very little confidence about debugging any examples I see.

    That said, I think there might be a bug in @No Avenger's example
    > For a ratio of 1:1,5 70 (10 below threshold) will result in 75, 60 (20 below threshold) will result in 70.

    Should that ratio be 1:2 ? Honestly, I'm asking with no confidence about my query. I just couldn't make 1:1.5 work
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  11. Giggity

    Giggity Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    156
    In case you need a refresher on understanding compression with a visual tool, check this out!

    Good luck.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  12. DoubleTake

    DoubleTake Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,415
    Likes Received:
    742
    I think upward compression is a TERRIBLE term.
    I think it ought to be referred to as EXPANSION.
    But what do I know. Maybe there is a reason for using the term "upward compression".
    Not to hijack the thread, but does anyone know WHY the term is used?
    (and explaining MAY also partly answer the OP question)
    - EDIT: OMG, not to confuse the issue but ...
    ... in looking at iZotope's site regarding compression they have a poor choice of terms (the word "spectrum") in describing upward and downward ...especially considering multiband dynamics ...

    "To quickly recap, in what we commonly call “compression,” a signal is brought down in level when it crosses a dialed-in threshold. More accurately, this is termed “downward compression.”

    "Upward compression, however, works from the opposite end of the spectrum: when a quiet signal falls below a predetermined threshold, it’s brought up in level."

    SPECTRUM? Maybe because they work with audio that term came to mind but it is a BAD choice.
    They could have said "works in the opposite way". For anyone who actually needs to read their description, "spectrum" might be misleading.

    Maybe I am a rebel in terminology but I feel iZotope's description is wrong.

    https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/ex...d-techniques-for-improving-dynamic-range.html

    I feel that "downward expansion" is compression, and upward compression is expansion, and I feel that to use the terms in another way is just pandering to the retards.
    Welp... maybe i am just arrogant in my ignorance...

    TO ME compression is always..well, COMPRESSION of dynamic range.
    And TO ME expansion is always ... well, EXPANSION of dynamic range.

    I refuse to submit!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  13. recycle

    recycle Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,297
    Likes Received:
    895
    Location:
    motherboard
    First time I heard the word “expansion” was in my preferite record shop: I was wondering why the vinyls I listened to in the shop sounded better than when I played them at home. The seller was my friend: he confessed to me that, in order to sell more records, they had installed a "compressor / expander" module on the output of their mixer. Since that day my life has never been the same… and from there on I have always called the upward compressor an "expander"
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  14. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    6,108
    Likes Received:
    4,278
    Location:
    Europe
    Absolutely impossible. :rofl:

    Seriously, could be fictional maths, I'll give you that. [​IMG] Where are the weisenheimers when you need them?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Love it! Love it! x 1
    • List
  15. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    6,108
    Likes Received:
    4,278
    Location:
    Europe
    And this is exactly why there is a difference between upward compression and expansion.
    Upward compression reduces the dynamic range (technically this term is wrong is this context) below the threshold, while upward expansion expands the dynamic range above the threshold.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  16. mild pump milk

    mild pump milk Russian Milk Drunkard

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,338
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Location:
    Russia
    Quoted my post of an approximate explanation:

    1. Downward compression - loud parts compressed, below threshold is untounched. Usual compression, limiting, maximizing.
    2. Upward compression - loud parts untouched, below threshold is louder. No punch, no groove. Vocals' breath and background noise can be louder. Imagine that you still have a dry recorded sound, but noise is louder, background stuff is louder, more reverb tails, but still no punch and groove.
    3. Upward expansion - add punch, snap and transients to sound, uncompress the compressed sound.
    4. Downward expansion - lower the noise below threshold, smooth gating or extreme gating. Lower the quieter sound, less background sounds, less reverb tails.

    You can add background quiet sounds by downward compression (compress and gain/make up) or upward compression, but you decide how to do this. Both methods will lead to different results.

    Simple description.
     
    • Agree x 3
    • Love it! x 2
    • Like x 1
    • Winner x 1
    • Useful x 1
    • List
  17. Coronazi

    Coronazi Kapellmeister

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    48
    the best way is to search an explicit frequency and cancel it out first .
    then you can lift it or cancel it as whish.
     
  18. Smoove Stack

    Smoove Stack Ultrasonic

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    28
    Hahahaha... upward compression is a quite a annoying term. Totally agree.Think about an Twin TurboCompressor Nissan GTR vs an Twin Turbo Downward Expander Nissan GTR!! LoL. physically, matter can be compressed, expanded or maintained in its natural equilibrium with its environment. What happens furthermore is based on how you will apply these forces.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    • List
  19. Jagul

    Jagul Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2020
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thank you for easy and short explanation.
    I did Screenshot .
     
  20. 5teezo

    5teezo Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,813
    Likes Received:
    974
    No,no,no… this process we are talking about here is not expansion! Expansion works the opposite way of regular downward compression. In expansion, the level differences between transients are increased which results in an increased or expanded dynamic range. That's what the term expansion actually refers to: increasing/expanding the dynamic range.

    Think of a stem with a hihat and a snare. Let's say the hihat on that track is too loud in relation to the snare. With a downward expander you could set it up in a way that the hihat is turned down, but the snare stays at the same level which results in a increased dynamic range. Exactly as in the graphic shown in izotope Link you are refering too.

    But this is NOT what happens in Upward compression discussed here, because – and that's the core of the argument – the dynamic range is decreased by using up- and downward compression, NOT increased/expanded. Everybody listening to a drumloop treated by MV2 can tell: this is not increasing the dynamic range. ;)

    So everything you said is technically and in actual fact, wrong – no matter how you feel about it.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  21. DoubleTake

    DoubleTake Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,415
    Likes Received:
    742
    As I'd hoped, it seems clearer with specific rebuttals.
    So, ok, so I can understand the need to use 4 terms, but my annoyance with those terms lingers... :rofl:
    Yeah, my feelz is wrong :rofl:
     
Loading...
Loading...