Windows 7 or 10 on new HW?

Discussion in 'Computer Hardware' started by DelveRob, May 31, 2019.

  1. Jazz-N-Stuff

    Jazz-N-Stuff Producer

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  2. Jazz-N-Stuff

    Jazz-N-Stuff Producer

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    and this is another problem: https://www.native-instruments.com/...-audio-glitches-dpc-latency-new-build.347239/

    WIN 10 has more problems than WIN 7 abt Audio realtime processing latency handling. Or show me proof how WIN 10 handles it better.
    We dont talk abt Gaming or Internet or whatever, its for AUDIO related problems only.
    I quote (from resplendence website) what the problem is:
    The audio latency problem

    Windows is not a real-time operating system. All requests to the operating system are delivered on a best effort basis. There are no guarantees whatsoever that requests are delivered within a certain time frame, which are the characteristics of a real-time operating system. That is not a problem for most devices and tasks but this is bad news for audio applications (which are considered soft real-time) because they need to deliver data to the subsystem and the hardware in buffers several times per second. If one or more buffers miss their deadlines and are not delivered in time it has audible consequences which are recognized as dropouts, clicks and pops.
     
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  3. The Pirate

    The Pirate Audiosexual

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    A better way to put it would be: it is wise! Why do you call the recommendation of Windows 7 a self indulgent behavior? Nothing indulgent about it. If people are recommending Windows 7 there must be a good reason for it. Members are going to recommend what they use, what they prefer based on their experience. Is your recommendation of Windows 10 self indulgence, too? Or a respectable recommendation based on your personal experience with the system?
     
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  4. tzzsmk

    tzzsmk Rock Star

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    I understand the @Fudsey Plange point of view,
    but audio world is quite specific regarding IT, it doesn't really require the evolution of computer hardware and software that much to adequately enrich audio workflow experience;
    for decades, computers weren't needed for audio production, and primary spread of PCs in audio were editing capabilities only; mics, preamps, converters, consoles and audio processing principles are literally same for 50 years;

    on one hand, we can have literally 12-year-old computers (running Core2Duo) perfectly capable of music production, as the workflows remain basically same,
    on the other hand, tons of software and hardware devs trying to squeeze money from customers as much and as often they can (yea I look at you AVID, Adobe etc..) promising fancy features for no real benefit related to audio production;

    it's really tricky, especially for business audio sector to decide, if:
    1) it's more cost effective to just set things up and use them until they die (as many pro studios are running legacy protools and digidesign hardware) - which then means prepare investment plan and transition for time when everything will need to be replaced;
    2) it's more cost effective to keep changing things every 2-3 years, facing new problems, forcing end users to learn new stuff, troubleshooting things continuously (because Windows 10 is always a beta system by release cycle design)

    there is absolutely nothing wrong with using Windows 7 once its official support expires, especially with offline machines with almost zero threat of malware, there haven't been any functional improvements since release of service pack 1 in 2011, so what exactly would suddenly become so wrong in 2020? only Microsoft can artificially fck things up to force users move to Win10,
    similarly there is nothing wrong with using Windows 10, as long as chosen hardware and software is properly supported (for ex. I have never heard about RME interfaces causing any issues on neither legacy or bleeding-edge fresh OSes) - as you say problem is with people having older PCs upgrading to Win10 expecting same quality of experience which is obviously not possible at certain configurations
     
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  5. twoheart

    twoheart Rock Star

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    But only why?
    I'm not a "happy Win 10 user", but a Win 10 user. Although I doubt my PC will have no spike on latencymon.

    On the other hand I haven't had dropouts in my normal work for all the years I used Win 10 now.
    But I did streamline it (spyware, services, startuptasks, Cortana, Defender etc. pp...) directly after installation and hold it in this condition.

    If there is no problem, one can search until he/she finds one, or is simply ok with having none. :wink:
     
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  6. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Producer

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    I agree with all that you wrote here.
    I'm writing this post using a casual scruffy W10 box. Before doing this I was exploring Kontakt 6.1 portable on the same box, all working well, nothing about W10 getting in the way, etc. It's like your machine, basic essential streamlining done, and it's powerful enough to meddle with most music software. I'm on your side with 'doing just whatever is required' and not looking for problems.
    But you asked 'Why?' (about latency) so here's just one answer to that.
    Two weeks ago, I took a laptop + M-Audio interface + 12 microphones into a rehearsal room and recorded a band session.
    Guess what - I most certainly did NOT use W10.
    I'm not trying to be anti-W10. Your basic obvious streamlining won't cut it for demanding audio work - you need 'super streamlining' and you absolutely must solve latency issues and kill any cpu spikes that interfere with recording.
    My real complaint is that with each new version of Windows, with each new version of OSX, it just gets harder and harder to technically achieve the necessary pruning (getting rid of the domestic crap).
    I always feel I have to carefully weigh the small benefits of the new with the real downside of the new; and that downside is usually the effort required to get rid of the crap without making the OS unreliable.
    I'm sure what I'm describing is 'old news' to most people here, but if it's new to anyone then do remember that when you're looking for the best operating system for music you're not looking for an operating system that brags about features, you're mostly looking for an operating system that will 'get out of the way'.
    All of the domestic bells and whistles of a modern 'connected' operating system are mostly just a pain in the butt. Tomorrow's operating system will have loads more of those grotty bells and whistles, but I'll still check it out to see if I like it.
     
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  7. twoheart

    twoheart Rock Star

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    Totally agree in return :yes:
    If there is a problem, it needs to be solved. But really I don't like solving problems without an existing problem. :no:

    What I don't agree wih is, that attitude of "those happy Win 10 users" are called idiots more or less, because they are ok with what the OS delivers. Not everyone has (the same) problems, and I'm ok with having none.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  8. Marcsal

    Marcsal Member

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    I know your intentions l. Im new here but not naive. Better if you dont quote me in the future. I dont like people like you who use forums to attack others you dont even know. I will ignore you, you do the same.
     
  9. Jazz-N-Stuff

    Jazz-N-Stuff Producer

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  10. TaxiDriver

    TaxiDriver Kapellmeister

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    Disclaimer: I love you all, guys and a debate like this certainly brings up the bad and the really bad stuff in the OSes..;) to facilitate the OP's decision (or to blow up their brain) here are just my thoughts about it:

    Win7 is/was really great and then those greedy folks saw how much money is made w/ telemetry model adopted elsewhere and the rest is history..

    One, that knows his/her system(+HW) inside out and knows how to squeeze the most out of it will (in most cases) outperform the other one that doesn't (works both ways). Ok, but W10 spies on you and W7 does not ..again, if you get rid of KB3075249, KB3080149, KB3021... is this something a "musician" should be aware of? Or even bother, loosing time..

    So to me a professional way to choose an OS is: make a list of SW and HW you will use. Go to the official site of those and take note of system requirements. Then go to as many forums as you can and try to find out how your SW/HW combo behaves in real life. And then you will need some luck too.. Depends also on the user-type you are.

    I'm using both, but there is Win10 on my main machine. Why?

    The latest versions of the Adobe video and audio tools require Windows 10 (version 1703, or higher) or macOS 10.12 (or higher) to run. This applies to the Creative Cloud 2019 release of Adobe Media Encoder, After Effects, Audition, Character Animator, Prelude, and Premiere Pro.

    And speaking of Native Instruments - some of their products don't support Win7 anymore. So if you buy something like S4, S2 DJ controller you wont get spikes.. you will get "nothing"..;)

    Now, will this trend continue? I don't want to get into a speculative debate (devs cutting costs aso..). Just something to be aware of.
    Peace out :wink:
     
  11. Jazz-N-Stuff

    Jazz-N-Stuff Producer

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    yep they all surrendered to Microsoft Marketing strategy!
     
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  12. Fudsey Plange

    Fudsey Plange Audiosexual

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    The question was:

    Can you explain why your suggested DPC analyser always reports the inability to process audio when Thesycon DPC anylyser always doesn't on my machine?

    https://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml

    This is a factual question to which there must be a factual answer.
     
  13. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    It's not marketing. It's just Msoft, like Apple, has the developers grabbed by the balls and squeezing 'em very hard. Meaning it has our users balls producing grape juce too.
    It's been commented here before. First a new DirectX version artificially only-compatible with the new Windows, for the gamers that are the ones who pay more.
    Then gradually push and then force programmers to develop in the new Windows (Visual Studio and new features and stuff).
    Finally, the coup de grace is not releasing something really important, say the latest .NET framework for the older Windows and devs are forced to develop in and for the latest Windows. Or just dropping security support.
    What is happening now is very similar to the Windows XP-7 transition. They were lucky at MSoft when PCs began to have 4+ GB RAM.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  14. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    BTW, I have a very old computer but after that tweaking the performance and resource usage of Win 10 is pretty similar to Windows 7.
    It's a PITA, Cortana, Metro, bloat-shit-ware, start menu and so on. But it can be done.
    And you can't put as an example a flaw in a version that probably even hasn't been released (19H3) outside the insider's program. I'm on v1709.
    And hey, smile, compared to Mac users we are blessed :rofl:
     
  15. The Pirate

    The Pirate Audiosexual

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    Of course! Any Windows 7 user that answers differently needs a psychologist.
     
  16. SineWave

    SineWave Audiosexual

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    Yes, it's a sad state of affairs in the music making land... :(

    There's too much focus on making money in the OS' world, and no focus on making the OS' work smoothly, especially for the content creators. No wonder as we're just a small percentage of the users. Big majority just browse and watch videos, edit a doc here and there... they don't give a rat's fart about DPC latency. :sad: And when you think about it, they really shouldn't. When a YT video works without any interruptions, everything is just peachy for them.

    That's why I keep saying it would be incredibly great if we had an OS specifically made for content creation. I'm saying "content creation" on purpose, because it includes video creators, too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  17. westfinch

    westfinch Producer

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    AND, how many vst's are going to stop Windows 7 support? It has already begun.
     
  18. darthloud

    darthloud Kapellmeister

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    windows 7 forever
     
  19. Qrchack

    Qrchack Platinum Record

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    That's a 6th-gen (Skylake X) Intel CPU. Your next CPU upgrade will force you to use Windows 10 since earlier versions of Windows won't install (without patching, which is not supported). So better get used to win10 since you'll be using it anyway. If not on your machines, then definitely at school/work. It's better than 7 anyway.

    Edit: Not to mention installing software that is known to be obsolete and no longer receive security updates in a year is probably not a good idea
     
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