Why from all 7 modes Major and Minor prevailed?

Discussion in 'Working with Sound' started by samsome, Aug 24, 2020.

  1. mr.personality

    mr.personality Kapellmeister

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    Probably most likely and perhaps do it myself unwittingly, heh. Can you point to any examples... maybe a youtube tut explaining it or something? Now I'm very curious what it sounds like
     
  2. COVID-X

    COVID-X Noisemaker

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  3. The Freq

    The Freq Producer

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    There are some superb books on much of the related and tangents people have posted here, written by exceptional, qualified lecturers and authors who leave very little untouched.
    It seems a human trait for centuries of labelling something or someone as a means of identification.
    Theoretically no matter the style of music the performer likes, a person is simply 'a musician'. The only differentiation has always been the same, someone who does it for a living and someone who does not. so they are an amateur or a professional.
     
  4. muffball

    muffball Kapellmeister

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    You hear it all the time. If I can try to keep it simple, and annoying, I'll flip the example so it makes instant sense as to how you can experiment with it by pointing to things that don't do it. if you think of a formulaic chord progression of vi-IV-I-V this starts on the minor and, if you were to simply look at the chords, you could easily be forgiven for thinking the piece was in the minor key (the vi being the I in the corresponding minor key). There's no way to tell from just that info because both natural keys contain these simple chords. This particular progression in the major, however, whilst a little less common than !-V-vi-IV has produced some outrageously huge hits, with some being as outrageously annoying, and has become very common in trailers and cinematic music because it lends itself to the "epic sound" or a hero theme if you like. Hans Zimmer, most notably, has walked this path many times. Whilst his "epic" scores might not be quite so annoying to some, the pop songs will cut people in half (love/hate).

    If you analyse the whole piece you'll likely easily conclude it is written in the major key. But what if you just laid it on thin and threw in some accidentals and didn't resolve the melody hard. Which key is it in then? You can write it in the major and, as long as you're always aware of your key, it can be quite ambiguous as to whether it's the major or minor key. Perhaps you could, then, write with equal justification in either. There's a bit of suspense, a bit of a question hanging in the music. This will apply to anything that has parts, especially melodic components, that either flutter around resolving or rush through it and instantly take it away.

    I know I haven't given any examples (sorry). I could throw out a dozen examples of the "epic 4 chord progression" but that probably wouldn't help much and I'm simply drawing a blank on naming something that I know teases the listener with questions without answers or, better yet, takes them on a soothing ride without having them wanting a root "Bonggg" finish (Yeah bonggg is super technical - I'm getting advanced now). I'll probably think of 20 about half an hour after posting this.
     
  5. 23322332

    23322332 Platinum Record

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    II-V-I pitch drifts a syntonic comma up or down, depending on the voicings. There is nothing natural in this chord progression, which basically defines meantone temperament.

    The most compact meantone scale is actually the black keys pentatonic scale.

    Another pentatonic scale - minor added sixth pentatonic - C Eb F G A - is actually all consonances in 5-limit. It is not often heard in Western music, but I think it's popular in Korean music.
     
  6. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    Hey, @lasm2000, what is that dislike for???
     
  7. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    Nah, Foster would say "why major and minor prevailed since they're crap along with all the music made using them?"

    Edited: I know it's funny, but that's almost exactly what he does :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  8. mr.personality

    mr.personality Kapellmeister

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    Yeah. We're talking about playing lines, a melody or soloing in the context of the backing harmonic content right? In that respect, absolutely, that the root would be a 'hammering' of. I started to get a bit long winded in my first post so I deleted much. What I was thinking in my mind then was of a guitar player sitting on the couch just single note noodling around.

    If that person was to think in their head, 'let me play some lines that will follow such and such chords' (as I often do, heh), then unless they hit that root of the next chord they've decided to move to next, it'd be just some other note played floating around in the air.

    IOW, say I'm thinking I'm gonna start with a C chord and perhaps rake a C triad to establish the tonality for myself and then begin noodling in C maj. pentatonic. If I think next chord I want to go is Ab, unless I head for the Ab note and proceed noodling Ab maj pent for example, being that there's no backing track, it's the only way to spell out the change (at least for me. guess it depends how well you can hallucinate hearing actual backing music , heh). So on and so on for next chords

    So yeah, if we're talking about playing with other musicians or backing tracks already spelling the stuff out, root resolving isn't necessarily necessary depending on the effect you're after.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  9. Imprint

    Imprint Noisemaker

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    Instinctive feeling VS. Certainty

    The driving force behind human works throughout the history has been reaching certainty.

    One can set aside acting with certainty and rely only on his/her own instinct. Relying on instinct and spontaneous behavior may seem more productive in many cases, but the possibility of repeating the experiences is reduced.

    Unfortunately, one problem with the humanities, and especially the arts, is that they (conclusive principles) cannot be easily ascertained because the complexity of human thoughts and ideas is far greater than other phenomena occurring in nature, and for this mere reason, people often use instinct to create works of art.:dunno:
     
  10. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Rock Star

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    This feels like a pointless extension of the slightly humorous off-topic bits of this thread.
    It also reads like a fairly dull and slightly pretentious reworking of a previous thread on 'certainty'.
    I commented on that thread here. https://audiosex.pro/posts/452430/

    Given that you refer to 'instincts', my instincts tell me that the previous thread was probably also from you,
    in one of your many earlier disguises.
    Sincere apologies if that accusation is incorrect, and that kind of trolling wouldn't actually bother me or offend me anyway
    - provided the topic was interesting. But this time it ain't interesting enough - (not for me anyway)
    :)
     
  11. Imprint

    Imprint Noisemaker

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    I can say with certainty that you're so cruel and I also can say that one of fundamental proved principles of the art is fighting against that. Please set yourself free of this weakness. I just wanted to help with my comment.:mates::sad:
     
  12. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Rock Star

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    Try pulling my other leg - it's got bells on. :rofl:
     
  13. Triphammer

    Triphammer Ultrasonic

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    So many overly complicated answers to a relatively simple question. IMHO, it comes down to accessibility.
    Yes, it's easier for the players BUT, more succinctly, it's easier for most listeners to wrap their heads around.
    The average listener has a limited palette. In the western world more people would rather have a hamburger
    than pad thai.
     
  14. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Rock Star

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    Sorry but No and Yes. (I am NOT being unkind).

    The No: You're viewing it as a 'relatively simple question' only because you're not actually answering it.
    Your answer might as well be "Major-minor is more popular because Major-minor is more popular"

    The Yes: everything else that you said - agree - but it's missing the point.

    You said...
    > "it's easier for most listeners to wrap their heads around".
    That's a fair comment.
    But now you need to answer "WHY is it easier for listeners to wrap their heads around"?
    If you're not answering that then you've missed the point entirely.

    As several people have referred to as examples in their answers, all the white notes on the piano are just one diatonic space.
    If you play those notes from C to C people can assimilate that scale easily (the obvious Major scale)
    But if you play the same notes from B to B people will find it awkward. (the far less popular Locrian mode)
    You need to answer Why do people react that way? when they're all the same notes in the same diatonic space?
    You have to consider - "Is it just cultural conditioning? or is there something about the scales that's responsible? - or both?"

    You said...
    > So many overly complicated answers to a relatively simple question
    If you really think that, it means you're just not seeing the issues.

    See the answer from @Valnar (quoted below) I'm guessing that you think this is one of those overly complicated answers.
    But it's not overly complicated at all. It is actually an introductory answer (a superbly written introductory answer).
    A problem with @Valnar's answer (not a criticism - just a problem)
    is that you will only understand the answer if you already have the required background knowledge.
    Without that background knowledge, you'll just glaze over and call it overly complicated.

    I describe @Valnar's answer (and the answer in the link provided by @metaller)
    as the absolute minimum details required to just start answering the question well.

    So, if you called it overly complicated before - I recommend reading it again.
    Now my personal rant time...:winker:
    Interesting to see that several people have provided very minimal sketchy versions of some of the ideas in @Valnar's answer.
    By itself, that's good, but it's almost as though they just couldn't be bothered to read @Valnar's answer first and then realise
    that they were just repeating bits of it.
    Why don't people actually read other answers first?
    - just a bit too long perhaps, a bit too serious, not sound-bytey enough?

    People seem to desperately want all the world's interesting questions be answered in Tweets? :dunno:
    So depressing :sad:
     
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  15. muffball

    muffball Kapellmeister

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    That's probably more to do with the nature of discussions where something, in particular, gets picked up and talked about for a moment, The answers are given very early in the beginning but, if you're not familiar with where they're going, you've got a long read ahead of you as they should lead to more curiosity and more reading. Everything after that in the thread is just... mild gossip. :bleh:
     
  16. Imprint

    Imprint Noisemaker

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    @23322332

    Can I ask you a question?

    We have lots of scales in 12 TET with different names, each of which is attributed to different countries and cultures. Apart from the major and varieties of minor, in your opinion, have the rest of the scales in 12 TET been chosen based on knowledge and awareness or the lack of them?:guru:
     
  17. babuk

    babuk Kapellmeister

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    Foster again? c'mon, the looney bin is opened once more.
     
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  18. 23322332

    23322332 Platinum Record

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    I don't understand what are you asking, Foster...

    "have the rest of the scales in 12 TET been chosen based on knowledge and awareness or the lack of them?" - this part makes no sense in your sentence.

    Regardless of your question, each pattern has a certain unique sound and emotional impact.
    Here is a list of all scales in 12 equal, using the dihedral classification - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pitch-class_sets
     
  19. Imprint

    Imprint Noisemaker

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    I think it does. I just said major and minor are sensible but other scales are senseless. Non-western cultures didn't make scales from 12 TET logically.
    Choosing pitches from 12 TET and packaging them in the form of scales by non-western cultures are pointless.

    Btw, appreciate a lot for the link.:bow:
     
  20. 23322332

    23322332 Platinum Record

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    Westeners didn't make scales from 12 ET.
    Western art music (or at least some of it) can be traced to Byzantine chants (So, like 2000 years of history at least.)
    12 ET is really 19th-20th century thing.
     
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