Why don't some people essentially trust their ears on the subject of harmony?

Discussion in 'Education' started by foster911, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. foster911

    foster911 Guest

    Are they worried and feel that would be probably cheated and used sexomonically?:dunno:
     
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  3. BaSsDuDe

    BaSsDuDe Pending Deletion

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    Ears can get you as far as theoretical training. Django Reinhardt did not read and played great gypsy jazz. Dennis Chambers one of the most respected jazz and jazz-fusion drummers in the last 40 years does not read a note but has a photographic/ear memory.
    Learning theory speeds up the process, but you're right, as above shows, it can be done without the training, but in complex harmony it takes a bit longer.
    I know PhD's that are ordinary musicians but their theory is phenomenal.They are musicologists. I also know some that also play fantastically.
    I know musicians that have ridiculous skills and read just ok but their harmony knowledge is great.

    It's a choice. A book can be learned from but a music book cannot teach a person desire, determination, persistence, how to deal with failure and success, how to think outside of the square... Many of those are psychological and can be self taught or through different books but rarely in the same book.
    There is a great book called "The inner game of music" - Which teaches musician's how to be skilled and lose the psychological.
    The Inner Game of Music is that which takes place in the mind, played against such elusive opponents as nervousness, self-doubt, and fear of failure. Plus it teaches a musician how to break down extremely difficult music into simpler structures and learn to play anything they aim for.
    When a person has to "lug" a very common jazz practice, they have to use their ears. No training in the world will save the most theoretically trained person in the world if they hear nothing relatively in a lug situation when a tune they do not know is called. The harmony and theory can help, but only if they can hear the harmony. if they cannot... Bye bye blackbird...


    Much of harmony, theory, skills and everything that every musician debates or argues over comes down to the individual. Where do they see themselves going? What is needed in harmony is as far as person wishes to take themselves on their journey. I know of people like George Garzone who Michael Brecker said was the greatest living saxophonist in the world. George Garzone has a ridiculous triadic harmony concept that is amazing in concept. Garzone thinks he is only just beginning. That kind of says that the journey is never ending, whether by ear or by experience, by theoretical training or by all.
    Here's a link to the book. It's pretty great. a lot of pro's use it when they get self esteem issues just like anyone else.
    https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Music-Barry-Green/dp/0385231261
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
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  4. retsoff119

    retsoff119 Kapellmeister

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    @foster911
    It is a good idea to read through what Bassdude is saying .
    Lots of wisdom and knowledge that can only come from experience .
    Practical examples of different situations that one can find all over the world , because yes there is a common ground shared by
    honest musicians no matter where you live .

    That is also the beauty with this music :
    -Jazz musicians sharing this common ground and spirit can meet each other one hour (time to say hi , take a drink)
    before playing a gig in front of an audience among which some listeners will com at the end saying :
    That's a nice band guys , how long have you been playing together ?

    I am sure Bassdude has been living this ,i have been living this ... Usually this kind of situation happens because trustable people
    recommend each other , we feel that this guy and this guy and this other girl (not only guys!) will fit together for what is required .
     
  5. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    People Do trust Their ears, in fact they have NO choice but to trust their ears!
    (maybe there are deaf people that make music and they don't trust their ears to make music)

    "trust your ears" is a figure of speech that is talking about a person's "taste" in music.
    "what sounds sound" , "what kind of music do you like?"



    but if you want to talk about "trusting your ears " literally! lol check this out









    Here is an interesting thing about how we as a society "trust our ears"
    the history of music shows us that once a new technique enters a genre lets say, that it becomes part of the whole music cultivation " music taste" of society at large .
    when a new development happens ( say by a band or artist) it effects all of society and adds to the language of that genre in such a way where the next generation artists use that development and then work to add their own to the collective music cultivation.
    with each of these below songs, think about when you first heard these techniques ( contained within the music) and how the different time periods effected the music cultivation."music taste"




     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  6. kooper

    kooper Producer

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    It's a good idea to "train" your ear a bit, and then yes trust them. What I have seen with people who run solely on instinct where it comes to harmony, is that they do fine until the end of the scale and then they get lost. That is typical. Why not find the scale on the keys and familiarize yourself on whre it'll end up and then at that point you can trust that you know where to end up.
     
  7. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    trust our ears in what sense?


    Those the develop knowledge in music theory
    are trusting their ears MORE than those who "draw from the ether"( they are trusting their subconscious not their ears haha)

    the simple truth is, the more your ears are developed are the more they can be trusted.

    if a person cannot "hear" 3 note chord, but only make out 2 note chords, well when they trust their ears things go wrong.
    those that can distinguish a 7 note chord when they trust their ears things go well for them.
    of course you don;t have to make music with depth. you can make flat 2d music with one melody and 1 bassline,

    if you develop you ears ( being able to hear 7 note chords or 3d harmony made from many independent melodies, then trysting your ears will work for you every time.
     
  8. Lambchop

    Lambchop Banned

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    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. For it is written,
    Amen.
    Why be ...what's the opposite of proactive? bigoted? yeah, why be superficial and bigoted, hmm?
    A discriminating gentlesir such as myself does not discriminate! All people are equal. Judging a musician by her music is no better than judging a book by its cover, It's Wrong and racist, it's elitist, supremacist. You know who was supremacist? Hitler. Don't be like Hitler, stop the violence.

    Gentlemen, let us break the ties with our dark past and commit bigotry and prejudice to the dustbins of history! We must begin to learn from our peers (of dubious mental hygiene, who can't play music). Music and competence are not important. What is important is the basic human right to educate, which is inalienable & demands our Respect.
    Rock on New York.
    Rock on Chicago.
    Nike. Just do it.
     
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  9. Matt777

    Matt777 Platinum Record

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    "Why don't some people essentially trust their ears on the subject of harmony?"

    Well, AFAIK they do! Take any TOP 10, 20, 40, 100.. chart. I think 99.997% of the music is done without bothering about it (harmony). The over-simplistic harmony that may be present in these masterworks, is only a mere byproduct..

    There is (in existence):
    A - music that can be "produced" without any theoretical knowledge (by ear..)
    B - music that CAN NOT be "produced" without any theoretical knowledge (of harmony, but not limited to..)

    It's that simple.. :dunno:
     
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  10. superliquidsunshine

    superliquidsunshine Audiosexual

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    As I've mentioned before, for me theory has best been learned and then forgotten. I cannot ever remember the rules of the game helping me to create a melody or building a harmonic landscape. I have definately formed an opinion and internalized how to piece together musical puzzles from what I have heard since a child, and I am sure that a portion of that music was written by the numbers and certainly rubbed off on me, subconsciously manifesting in every song that I have ever written. I liken my knowledge of musical theory to my prose chops...even though I knows the rules of the English language, i.e., the structure of a sentence and the when and where to begin and end a paragraph, it surely has no bearing on my ability to tell a story or engage the reader, that aspect is an entirely different process and lies outside the bounds of mere construction.
     
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  11. BaSsDuDe

    BaSsDuDe Pending Deletion

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    I think this goes for Rock or Funk or Metal, R&B, Jazz, Trance, Trap, Rockabilly or anything you may wish to ever write...
    Throw all of the harmony, theory, technique and everything associated out when listening then asking: "Does it sound any good to me?"
    If the answer is yes and you wrote it, then it's right - for you.
    At the end of the day, unless someone is getting paid to write something, i.e. if people write for the art it doesn't fircking matter what anyone else thinks. If you wrote for the art and like it then the harmony is just fine - for you.
     
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  12. beatmagnus

    beatmagnus Guest

    .
     
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  13. BaSsDuDe

    BaSsDuDe Pending Deletion

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    @foster911
    Foster can you please explain what you mean by "sexomonically" please?

    There are several meanings for "Monic" and adding the prefix of "sexo" conjures some pretty bent possible meanings depending how you mean it whether in Proper English or Urban English, especially with the Urban reference to ecstacy.
    I've never heard this word and certainly not in any publication I have read before so I am intrigued, genuinely.
    Urban is becoming part of everyday spoken vocabulary now, so I figure there are probably a lot of Urban words I have no idea of. This is one.
    Call me ignorant if you like, I've just never heard it used this way before.
     
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  14. Lambchop

    Lambchop Banned

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    I don't know why, it's a perfectly cromulent word.
     
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  15. BaSsDuDe

    BaSsDuDe Pending Deletion

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    Shame they don't have an :award: emoticon because you'd get it. Thanks for the explanation.
     
  16. beatmagnus

    beatmagnus Guest

    .
     
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  17. BaSsDuDe

    BaSsDuDe Pending Deletion

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    Too funny. Yes in do it in cromulent manner so that every misnomer is validated by another misnomer. That would be funny and interesting to see how left of center the validations went.
     
  18. phloopy

    phloopy Audiosexual

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    Most (90%) of what I listen to from members here are based on a groove and a very few chords!

    I guess these guys (the 90%) believe in their choices regarding the chords/harmonies they´re using, so in that regard Im sure they´re using their ears :yes:

    But:
    If you really want to make some changes when it comes to hamonise your tunes/songs that means hard work - this might provocate your anti intellectual attitude in general when it comes to knowledge and insight in theoretic matters regarding composing?!?

    Example: (you are french and frenchmen are often well oriented regarding jazz... thats my experience)
    Jazz after 1948 (be bop) was a complete breakthrough when it comes to hamonies and chord progression, but it wasn´t invented by jazz mucisians alone, it was based on centuries of already known facts/experiences from classic music. What did these jazz musicians do then? They learned the language and gave it a serious twist. Basically they took up a tradition and expanded it based on knowledge, insight etc and brought the whole thing to a much higher level.

    Using your ears is indeed a GOOD thing foster but it doesnt necessarily bring you what you´re looking for.

    A good advise:
    Work hard, learn and improve your skills.
     
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  19. BaSsDuDe

    BaSsDuDe Pending Deletion

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    "Sexomonically", in attempting to find the meaning of a word that is like the fish that nobody can find could possibly be....

    Mathematically - A Sexual polynomial whose leading coefficient is one
    English topic - Sexual morphism in category
    Urban 1 - Sexually an extremely gorgeous woman
    Urban 2 - Sex with blue pokeballs
     
  20. BaSsDuDe

    BaSsDuDe Pending Deletion

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    Ah... you know your history. Great stuff.
    Yes Charlie Parker found Igor Stravinsky but unfortunately never had the chance to sit down with him for any length of time.
    Really it is Art. Art is about placing no boundaries on creativity and Parker certainly tried to do that along with Gillespie, Monk and many others.
     
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  21. Pagurida

    Pagurida Producer

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    Rape with triads is particularly perfidious. Victims cannot explain where the pain comes from and what the injuries mean. Until they get the bad suspicion, valuable time is often lost. The harmonies which musical rapists play to their victims are usually detectable only a few seconds. Even if the victims report to the police, they cannot say exactly what happened...

    Popular uses of triads as weapons are parties, folk festivals and discos, occasions where alcohol is drunk. Some sounds do not stun immediately, depending on the dosage. In small quantities, they initially cause a feeling of pleasure and have a restraining effect. To outsiders, the behavior is not necessarily striking: "He/she has drunk a bit too much" many think. The full effect until the anesthesia unfolds slowly...... ......later, the victim cannot remember anything......
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
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