In music, "new innovations" will always evolve, as well they should. Because music is not static. Just as the human mind continues to grow with each passing century, so will thoughts about music. However, I will never discard my roots; as my roots are what lead me to this point in my musical development. What I have always done, and will continue to do, is 'incorporate' the old with the new. Musically, I never burn my bridges, nor do I spurn the sunrises and sunsets that came before me. My late, great uncle taught me that wisdom many moons ago, and I never forgot it.

 

What are some of these "sounds"?
Can you give me an example of an instrument or "timbre" that sounds bad playing certain scales?

 

Rock music is often atonal. I've just finished mastering a song that "should be" E.
Well, the verse vocals are in E, the synth I've played where there are no vocals in the verse is in E min
The chorus is E min
In the bridge, while the main lead vocals are in E the choirs hit a long sustained note, between G and G#, the tracks play at the same time
in Melodyne, if I move the wrong note to G or G# well it s even more dissonant, it only sounds in tune where it is, 4-5 comma in between the 2 notes, where I've felt it when singing
The verse vocals can be perfectly tuned in E
The chorus sounds much better untuned, even if it doesn t show exactly in tune, in Melodyne
that chorus has a slide guitar playing long glissando with delays
I ve tuned the verse, just a couple of lines of the chorus, with this hybrid method it sounds ok, acceptably tuned
I always check vocals and sometimes bass with Melodyne
Often, the best thing is to skip entire vocal phrases, leaving them untouched, or divide the song tuning in verse, chorus, bridge... and work on separated moments.

at the end, rock is atonal and it sounds alright as it is, tuning it may be a mistake, it may sound unreal and even more out of tune.

Bach'n'Roll !

 

Last edited: Jul 28, 2016

Harmony IS the balance of consonance and dissonance, you don't get one without the other. Good and evil...

Old fashioned theory? It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder towards music theory and harmony.

Harmony is one of the the building blocks of music along with melody, rhythm, motif, structure. The “complete” musician can play an instrument, has knowledge of music theory AND can also compose. The language of chords and harmony has developed not just to tell you what notes to play, but why.


"The writing and playing of music is a matter of intent.... You can't just throw a paint brush against the wall and call whatever happens art. My music fits the tonal personality of the player. I think too strongly in terms of altering my music to fit the performer to be impressed by accidental music. You can't take doodling seriously. - Duke Ellington

 

Playing a blue note doesn't make your music atonal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_note

If vocal sounds bad after you tune it, it's a problem with the transposing algorythm or your accompaniment.

Even in atonal music you can recognise the pitch-class set after some listening...

 

so many times, and I know Melodyne, and the scale played
it happens, a lot
the vocals sound good both the tuned and the free ones

 

sounds to me like melodyne is confused and it's confusing you even more.


when you say shifting a note, do you mean shifting a note with in the choir audio i.e. the choir is singing a chord and you're shifting a chord tone or do you mean you're shifting the entire choir/now chord which would then be transposing and you can't always transpose a chord and have it work as the intervals need to be adjusted from one scale tone to the to the other.

I remember the theme to Sopranos was a minor melody over a chord progression in major, it's not unheard of.

if you play the lower notes of a dominant scale it can sound major on top of the dominant tonality.
If you play in the lower notes of the harmonic minor scale you can have that minor tonality on top of that dissonant maj7th.

 

i may not have any idea about music theory but

i may have no real knowledge of music theory, and at 32 i feel i might be relatively young in this discussion but... i would die to hear those old jazz records! i live music in every step i take, all generes, and i fear if i dont ask i may never get the chance to let my ears feel the glory of those old albums or records

 

Youtube has also all kind of rare live footages and albums.
Just type Monk and Coltrane and you will find the album and another live concert recording.

 

• Almightyshux I have all the tracks, the choir I m talking about are 2 vocal lines at unison, they do the same thing, and the sustained not is exactly in the middle of G and G# if I tune it it s dissonant, on both vocal lines

but that s not an issue, I m used to it

 

Well, like "23322332" said, Youtube is a virtual "goldmine" for Jazz artists (both contemporary and vintage). In addition to Monk & Coltrane, Art Tatum, Miles Davis, Bud Powell, Red Garland, Herbie Hancock, Charlie Mingus, Dizzy Gillespie, Sonny Stitt, Lester Young, Chick Corea, Charlie Parker, Art Blakey, Max Roach, Billy Taylor, Dave Brubeck, Coleman Hawkins, Louis Armstrong, Count Basie, Ray Bryant, James Moody, George Shearing, Bill Evans... The list goes on forever and ever, man. All of the aforementioned people can be found on Youtube; either performing live, or just on audio. Here's a link to a ton of renowned Jazz musicians: http://rateyourmusic.com/list/SGT/150_greatest_jazz_musicians. BTW, even that lengthy list merely scratches the surface when trying to list of all of Jazz's fabulous performers. Let me know how you make out with your listening.

 

Last edited: Jul 29, 2016

NYCGRIFF,

I actually read the article you're referring to about a week ago. I'm not sure if you know, but the original research was published a few years back in the science journal, Nature, and more research on the same topic was published a few weeks ago. I'll let you read the editorial about it--cleverly titled, "The people who don't get 'Eleanor Rigby'"--and simply say here that the new research suggests that the widely accepted theory that the perception of dissonance is biologically "hard-wired" might be incorrect. The people studied, who live in a remote part of Bolivia with virtually no exposure to Western music, don't seem to recognize what we call dissonance at all. It might be a cultural construction after all.

The article: http://www.nature.com/news/the-people-who-don-t-get-eleanor-rigby-1.20244

Also, bravo for sharing some Monk! I think people are often turned off by his music, and music like it, because it requires a different approach by the listener. Much of the pleasure we derive from music comes from recognizing patterns and then being pleased, surprised, or momentarily disappointed as the many patterns in a given song meet or don't meet our expectations of how they will play out. Listening to Thelonious Monk that way will just piss you off. Instead, you have to clear your head of everything else, become a completely passive listener--which means purposely avoiding analyzing the music, at least while you're in the moment--and let Monk's musical genius take you for a ride. It doesn't sound very difficult, but it's harder than one might think to turn off the analysis because we're so used to searching out those pattern. It's so worth the effort, though, because the first time you really "get" his music will be one of those all-too-rare transcendent listening experiences that all music lovers search for like an addict trying to re-live that first-hit.

 

I first read the article that I posted about two or three years ago, and had completely forgotten about it until this subject came up during an online conversation I was having with another musician. By the way, thanks for the link. Very interesting article, for sure. The studies on the Tsimane’ people has yielded some very important information on this topic; although I have always suspected that people (in general) are not genetically "hard-wired" when it comes to accepting or rejecting certain sounds.

The article points toward "cultural" aspects as playing a major roll in the conditioning of one's relationship to music. The fact that the Tsimane’ people are purely a "melodic" people; having no chords or "harmonies" in their music, speaks volumes about this "dissonance vs consonance" question. One of the most fascinating parts of the article states: "Even when their traditional tunes were recorded, shifted in pitch and harmonized to make polyphonic arrangements and create consonance and dissonance, the listeners could not tell the difference between the two." Now, that bit of information, I found truly fascinating. I would certainly recommend that article to anyone interested in exploring this whole question in any greater detail. Thanks again for 'pulling my coat'.

Yeah, Monk's music will either send you running for the exit with your hands covering your ears, or tilting your head towards the music for a better listen. That's what the music of Monk will do to people. There are no fence-sitters about his music. You are absolutely correct when you say that at first glance, his music sounds simplistic, but beware listener, there's far more than meets the outer ear. Like it or not, his musical influence has left an indelible impression along the long corridors of the music universe. Monk passed away in 1982, and here we are 'still' discussing his work. That's saying something, isn't it? Your closing remarks above, are right-on-the-money! Good stuff...

 

@dim_triad:
Very nice! The whole Middle-Eastern vibe groove...

 

i just thought of a song i wrote a long long time ago when i was still working with fasttracker 2, i really liked it and when i got an mc-303 i tried to transfer it to the sequencer of it. for some strange reason it was dissonant, it seemed that the samples i used in the mod file just worked in such a way with eachother that even though it was dissonant it still sounded good which is why i never knew it was. the samples i used i had recorded myself and i am positive it wasnt because i sampled one of them in a different key, my gf at the time was a guitarplayer and when i asked her if she knew why this happened she replied 'but didnt you realize the original was also dissonant?' i'm gonna see if i still have these songs somewhere on cd and upload it somewhere as it would prolly be interesting for this topic

 

Would love to hear it...

 

"Most often choirs consist of four sections intended to sing in four part harmony, but there is no limit to the number of possible parts as long as there is a singer available to sing the part"

my brother, please be a bit more concise about your explanations, it helps us help you
and watch the typos!

but really, if you are confused about the key center of a song you're working on, it would be best to post examples, because what you're talking about sounds like pure and utter madness

oops another major 3rd minor 3rd moment lay within the the X7+9 chord AKA Hendrix Chord

 

Last edited: Jul 29, 2016

it doesn t sound like that to me
the song is ok, no need for anybody to check, just speaking

most of the choirs consist in what u said...
ok I didn t know anyway...
this one consists in 1 singer singing a vocal line, other than the lead one, and then doubling it
where is all this madness? I don t understand
2 vocal lines at unison, same notes, to make a choir ok? I don t know if this is on books, that s in my song

 

Last edited: Jul 29, 2016

anyway, thank you, re reading... I ve forgotten to thank you
I have all the Melodyne sets saved, I ll take a second look maybe anyway the vocals sound in tune now

the fact is simple, now I don t remember exactly if the moment I m talking about is E or E min
anyway there s a long sustained vocal note between G and G# not a chromatic accent, a 2 bar standing note, like a synth pad, at high volume, in the poor choirs that I have, a choir made of 2 singers singing the same thing, lazy guys
lol
the Melodyne detecting algorythm is the right one, and the 2 choir lines are treated separately, not a chord so
if I move that note to G or G# ... it s a mess... both dissonant
that long note must remain untuned, like G and 2-3 comma, or G# calante or the whole moment is dissonant, being a long sustained note at volume in the mix
if I leave it there where it is everything sounds ok

It happened to me in almost every rock and punk song I ve put my hands on. I must be unlucky lol

 

Last edited: Jul 30, 2016