As soon as you have anything worth saying , which requires depth to articulate . You too can type many long comments my friend!
( Nobody is preventing you from expressing yourself in context and detail such that a clarification from ambiguity can be made.)
You can choose to communicate such that people have at least some idea of what your words are supposed to represent.
You do realize that nobody is inside your thoughts with you right?
( I don't know the large backstory of your 1 liners )
When I write comments , I try at least to clarify enough that information can be transmitted through communication.(
Simply due to eAch individual coming from many walks of life
Hell, our best friends that we been around most misunderstand us everyday when we are too ambiguos.
( It's just the nature of a subjective experiance , our narrow keyhole of view of the world .)

 

Last edited: Jan 8, 2020

I agree totally but then want to add a further wrinkle.
Is 'Self-contradiction' a valuable red flag for 'something is wrong'? - yes - absolutely right.
Is the 'something wrong' a 'flawed dogmatic belief'? - very often yes.
But, it gets worse... sometimes the self contradictions are generated at a layer in our brains that goes much deeper than our belief systems; some of these self-contradictions are just hard wired - in all of us. They are truly embarrassing when revealed - we are a very flawed species.
----
The above comment was serious but below I'm just having fun...
Talking about self-contradictions... @Thunoing Thumbs has regularly displayed his preferences for de-escalating conflict, comments to support that appear in several of his posts. But in reality he is forum terrorist with a stockpile of hand grenades.
Witness his cunning recent post where one such grenade labelled 'Government' was tossed in and immediately caused a deluge of way off topic responses.
"Feel the Force"! Light Sabres at the ready -

 

Last edited: Jan 8, 2020

At first glance it's true that " government "
Is a derailing topic.however it does tie into music in the sense we have two conceptual opposites at every scale " order" and " chaos ".
The government structure that's applicable to society , is a organisation of information or structure system . In music it's music theory same purpose. Reconizing patterns and organizing principles.
It's really a way of navigating our human experiance connection to the outside world .
Structure and organization.the methodologies and principles of differentiating information from static or chaos or no patterns for the brain to see
( And I'm other situations chaos is mere possibility
) From quantum mechAnics all the way to classical mechanics and into the emergent consciousness experiance we see this consonance to dissonance of our brains ability to differentiate order from chaos on all scales ( although the manifests differently in each scale or context.)
This is actually where there is hope of the unification of quantum mechanics of small scale and gravity . Of large scale.
Ultimately this order and chaos .
( A description not prescription.)
It's based on our brain.
Do we see pattern or not?
If and when we see a pattern which way can we navigate these patterns such as to meet our requirements or needs?

 

That must be where you're going wrong.
You obviously have this quaint old fashioned view that statements need to actually be 'about something',
that they should actually have real content, real ideas, some substance.
Man - that's so unkoooool! this is 2020

Today, its just about attitude, just rant about how you feel, just express your contempt,
and above all - do it less than six words.

Hang on - Let's see if I can shorten all of that...

Get with the program man!

 

Me so hoe- neey........
Me love you luv u long time...........??!??

 

Musical Deepities - a progress report

At last, my compositional skills have allowed me to compose my first official deepity in a music related domain.

=== "Music made with Logic is sterile" ===

Reminder of the official rules...

So, the question is, should I post my first music deepity into the forum under the DAWs section?
just to see the pandemonium erupt...
just to see how many people can spot a deepity when they see one.

Any advice from all you professional grenade tossers will be taken into account.

 

The poor punters.....

 

Not really. Self-contradiction is more prevalent in the area I mentioned being government than in music.
If humans were truthful, there is not one person alive that is not guilty of it at least once. So the topic I found to be extraneous.
Not even remotely a forum terrorist. I can be as long-winded as anyone here.
I have no time for labels because nobody here except for perhaps a handful, have met anyone else here. Therefore, labelling is a total waste of time, possibly even superfluous. Even in music at times it is a waste of time.

P.S the topic you mention I am using hand-grenades on has nothing to do with the thread topic.
While "the philosophy of music theory" can have its own unique contradictions, with counterpoint sometimes containing musical contradictions that can work together, self-contradiction is individual not global nor necessarily musical, just to get back to the topic.

Two small examples of musical contradiction are John Coltrane's Spiral where he uses the same constant pedal point in the bass and harmonically it descends in major triads chromatically and Keith Jarrett's Koln Concerts, where Jarrett plays a maj7 over a dom7 harmony that works because the melodic voice leading is so strong it feels natural to go to that note. Diatonically it may well be 'theoretically' incorrect, but it does not sound wrong.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2020

You did read my line (below) with the big wink? yes? no?
(the most important line - the line you left out of the quote)
Seems like a very dry response to my 100% jokey remarks. A sense of humour???

 

Last edited: Jan 8, 2020

I believe that human beings are contradictory at the core. What I mean is the human rational mind vs the human subconscious are at odds which each other and not compatible .
For instance the subconscious mind is in a language of storytelling for which metaphor Is King.
Imagery and symbols tell rich tale and true or false is not important . Where the rational mind deals with sparsing out propositions fitting limited number of objects in short term memory and dealing with fact or fiction true or false.
What's interesting is that these two systems in each of us ( I believe ) are unable to separately arrive at 1 single coherent view if the world.
( Primarily since the subconscious mind does not care about what is fact or true propositions. It Cares about if a symbolic representations of your experiance .)
For example you imagine your spouce is cheating on you for a moment because they not come home on time. Your rational mind might think
" Oh that's fiction I have no real reason to accept that .it's just a thought . While your subconscious mind only cares that you experianced a response emotionally to the vivid thought. Not if it happened out in the world.)

 

Sorry I just read about the fires in Australia - I lost my sense of humour for a moment, my apologies.

All good

 

My philosophy regarding music theory
Can be expressed like this .

We have our rational mind which learns the order and structure, the patterns in music itself .
We learn this through the rational mind so deeply
( Just like the patterns in spoken language )
Now when we allow the subconscious mind of metaphor and symbols take this deep information about the structures and patterns .
We can fluently ( potentially )
Use those structures and patterns to express our inner world of experiance.
By connecting all parts of ourself in one activity
( Playing music fluently expressing what is inside of ourselves and subsequently communicating to the listener sharing ourselves and expressions of human experiance. (

Now when we don't study the structure and patterns and get it deeply in.( As with spoken language )
Not only can we not have unification of the rational mind and subconscious mind in the process of music writing and performing .we cannot communicate ourselves with the listener .
( Ever hear that music based solely on techniques or practice's ? It does not really tell a story?)
It does not end up fully engaging you the listener and your left feeling unsatisfied.

 

My idols . . . The Beatles . . . screwed us . . . they did it all without knowing any music theory. Damn!

 

True, but not only a language of storytelling. It is also a factory generating desires and goals which are more important to the organism than figuring out what is true or false about the world. Figuring out what is true or false is really valuable but nowhere near the trump card in the pack that humans find themselves playing with. Even for people that hold rationality in high esteem, it is a very tiny part of what drives their life, minute by minute, day by day.

 

They knew quite a bit .
They had team of people at every turn that knew a bit and contributed .
( If you listen it's all very common music language of the 20 years before them .)
Just because it's popular for people to say
" Oh, I don't know how I made it. ..it just came out "
There just not telling you what they studied in that moment .
I mean dam you can even watch docs on their life and see that had some training in music and learned things and we're surrounded by other whether producers or music industry people that contributed the bits they didn't know .
Although I like the Beatles and it impacted society in large way.
The music portion is very vanilla and basic
That's the point!
The idea was hey anyone can win this lottery and become rockstar
( It's sex, drugs, and rock and roll .....notice music is not in there!)
Punk rock was just a re statement of what rock wAs an anti music.
Have the personality become famous
( Building off what Elvis established.)
A new type of celebrity lottery system the hopes dreams aspirations that anyone any situation could have dream come true.
That was what was being sold with each album each concert ticket not music.
What the Beatles did musically any 1st year music student can do.
It was a cultural statement .
Take the music away and have record sales and music sales be based in hopes and dreams of the wretched .
( If your a record company you can sell lots records that way on both ends .
Countless people forming bands like that with records to sell , and countless of wretched needing hopes and dreams to escape their circumstances )

Compare that to only being able sell albums records made by virtuosos ( much less abundant )

Obviously society needed that.
But my point is musically .
Music itself suffered as a result .

In 1920 to 1950 the average record buyer only cated about music to buy from virtuoso .
And the average citizen was accostumed to high information high quality music with developed harmony melody and rhythm.

 

Last edited: Jan 8, 2020

Written too quickly and not paying enough attention to music knowledge versus music theory.
So, sorry, but there's lots wrong in there.
And as a core issue, it is not the rational mind that learns music knowledge;
the rational mind enables us to describe and discuss our music knowledge in music theory terminology, the music knowledge can be absorbed by someone listening to and improvising actual music, and not engaging in rational discussions at all.

p.s. I'm going to have to debug our philosophically sloppy use of spoken language analogies one day.

 

To some extent, yeah, this is what I mean when I say that if you have good ears you have theory automatically whether you know it or not, because you're absorbing. Also, hey had a George Martin who taught them a lot. The Beatles didn't get to be who they were in a vacuum. But, they did have a lot of raw talent.

 

Agreed.
...bringing the comment into the 'philosophy of ' discussion...
They had bucket loads of music knowledge; they were not great fans of music theory knowledge.
No contradiction there at all. This fussy word distinction music knowledge vs music theory knowledge really matters

 

I consider music knowledge and music theory inside of the same category and it was that single category that I was speaking about.
I don't believe we can really separate the two in that context .the reason is that you have the patterns in music but you also have the ways to use those patterns so only in unique circumstance would I feel to separate the two because each on its own cannot do a lot.

 

I don't know how you can have good ears without theory though.
Relative to what?
I'm sorry it's not possible .
You can only develop your ears by going through music theory .
I can demonstrate this with showing you this theory that I ask you participate with and play on the piano roll . I will describe it then ask you to use your ears to hear each puzzle peice of information and how the process for into 1 in terms of hearing what the information is showing.

In C major

Subdominant/ Dominant/ tonic/

Dmin7/ G7/ Cmaj/

However I'm going show you the structure what this actually means
I'm going present Voicings to play on piano roll 8n this particular way.
Highest octave working your way down to lowest.
Each voicing is presented low note up to high note.
Ex.
First voicing is Dmin7/ ADFC
( Begin highest octave there is
You have a chord voicing which goes A lowest note next note up is D next is F highest note is C
So ADFC low to high.
Now to understand what Dmin7/ G7/ Cmaj
Really means you have to hear this .

One chord after another descending each new voicing ( left to right then down then left to right then down )



ADFC/ G#DFB/ GCEA
FCDA/ FBDG#/ EACG
DACF/ DG#BF/ CGAE
CFAD/ BFG#D/ AEGC
ADFC/ G#DFB/ GCEA
FCDA/ FBDG#/ EACG
DACF/ DG#BF/ CGAE
CFAD/ BFG#D/ AEGC
ADFC/ G#DFB/ GCEA
FCDA/ FBDG#/ EACG
DACF/ DG#BF/ CGAE
CFAD/ BFG#D/ AEGC
ADFC/ G#DFB/ GCEA
FCDA/ FBDG#/ EACG
DACF/ DG#BF/ CGAE
CFAD/ BFG#D/ AEGC



Create in your daw where each voicing lasts a bar however the Cmaj or 3rd voicing lasts 2 bars to get 4 bars in total .
You will be descending from highest octave down to lowest octave with the progression. Repeating in each new set of Voicings 4 times per octave for each octave using voice leading.
Listen to it fast then slow at speeds.

That is what Dmin7/ G7/ Cmaj
Means actually means .
What your ears are hearing there and being trained for is the structure of music on several levels in an order they exist in such that each chord covers octaves , each progression happens 4 times per octave for every octave .
That is only way to have your ears understand
Just this tiny bit or fragment of music theory
Key of C
Dmin7/ G7/ Cmaj/

Without doing that , your ears have no way if understanding what a chord Progressions really are,
Where Voicings come into play and how .
Only with training can your ears be good.
If you complete this task described by my comment and spend 29 mins listening to what I described to build up in your piano roll in daw .
Your ears will be better than before you did it.
You ears will understand
What this little tiny bit of information really stands for.

Key of C ( ii V7 I)

 

Last edited: Jan 8, 2020