Without music theory you come up with a couple choices to select from in a situation.
With music theory you visualize every possibility
( Hundreds of thousands of choices for that 1 moment ) you now have a way to select the exact thing that matches what you are trying to create .

 

Does POP music need theory?
No!

Does Rock music need theory?
No!

Does Electronic music need theory?
No!

Does Main-Stream music need theory?
No!

So what do they need?
Inspiration & Piano Roll & Mixing & Mastering & EQ & Compressor!

Why do people love Inspiration more than theory?
Because it's colorful and so sweet!

 

My theory is this: Whose theory are you learning? And is it right for today? And is it right for you?

If you pioneer a new sound, technique, set of ideals that become popular, you've just created music theory for THIS era. Who's to say is that it will apply 10/20/50 years from now.

I personally don't think one or a set of people can theorize something that is so visceral and tell the masses they have to adhere to it or they are wrong. ART doesn't work that way.

It is also my personal belief some music theory exists to get artists to mold their work into something marketable so it will make gobs of money for greedy corporations. If an artist created something from his or her own heart and it only helped change the lives of a handful of people instead of millions, is that artist's personal approach and possible "theory" on music invalid? Money hungry corporations would say yes. But those fans who love that niche work would beg to differ.

 

I am to say that. In context, it will always apply.

 

A pattern IS the theory. An abstraction.
Do you think the science exists to describe? No. Our cars drive, our airplanes fly, our computers work, our medicines cure etc. because of the science. Because of the theories. The theory always retuns to the practice. But somebody ("pure" theorists) prefer to stop on the theory, they don't go forth. Somebody else will use it.
I think you haven't learned to extract something useful and meaningful from the theoretical books. You cannot find any "new horizons" in them. It's a pity.

 

where and how did you got the idea that anyone is forced to use any theory??!
its certainly not the goal of the reflections of this thread. i think you're projecting your own internal issues and insecurities regarding music..

and this "It is also my personal belief some music theory exists to get artists to mold their work into something marketable so it will make gobs of money for greedy corporations.". c'mon man, comercialims is a real problem but, you can't use that as an argument not to gain knowledge in general. its like saying you want to curve out your brains because of the risk of being wrong from time to time..

i mean pls dont just through around stuff like that in vain, is so unnecessary. im totally sure you can come up with a better argument in support for whatever reason you refuse to study a field of art/work.

 

Why I find this thread problematic. Sorry for a long comment; I sincerely apologise if you get bored reading it.

First I want to draw your attention to something called 'Bait and Switch'
You can read about it in lots of places, and it's valuable to know about (in any context - not just here)
Here's one link
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/105/Hypnotic-Bait-and-Switch
and here's my extract from that link.


The obvious problems with 'bait and switch' are… it is dishonest, it is grubby, it is insulting, and it works!

My problem with this thread is that it feels like classic 'bait and switch'. I am not accusing MMJ of being nefarious with this; it's probably just accidental bias; but bait and switch is definitely here, and by the bucket load.

Here's what I'm getting….

• I'm being asked does music theory matter - well count me in - yes (I will swallow that bait)
• I'm being asked whether music theory is useful - well count me in again - (I will swallow more bait)

and now the hidden implied switch…

• Therefore MMJ's 'version of' music theory must be a valuable resource.

Well, it's no secret that my opinion of that is 'absolutely not'. I'm happy to state that this just a personal opinion, but it's an opinion that I can easily defend. I am on public record as labelling MMJ's utterances about music theory as being pretty dreadful; the kind of stuff I would definitely shield beginners from.

So, compare the examples…

Example from above

• Do you love your country? - yeah, yeah, yeah (more bait please)
• Do you love your family? - yeah, yeah, yeah (more bait please)
• Do you care about their wellbeing? - yeah, yeah, yeah (more bait please)
• Then you would love Eatme ice-cream! - you must be joking‼!

Example from this thread

• Do you love music theory - yeah, yeah, yeah (more bait please)
• Do you think music theory is useful - yeah, yeah, yeah (more bait please)
• Then you should read MMJ's threads - you must be joking‼!

Is this a fair comparison? I think it is - but others may disagree.
I suggest we don't argue about it, because it is really easy to solve.
The right thing for MMJ to do is to demonstrate unambiguously that the comparison is false.
But again, not by arguing about it; that will absolutely not be enough.
The right thing for MMJ to do is to separate the questionnaire into two clearly separate parts.

Keep the first question the same as it is now.

And add a second question. I suggest the following question would be completely fair

How do you rate MMJ's contributions to Music Theory?
Are they…

• a) awesome
• b) quite good
• c) average
• d) quite poor
• e) garbage

So. MMJ, please demonstrate your integrity.
Please make it absolutely straightforward for people to express separately…
a) what do they think of music theory (your original question is ok for that)
b) what do they think of 'your approach' to music theory (please use my suggestion above)

These MUST BE separate questions.

You must demonstrate that you are not (accidentally or otherwise) holding everyone hostage to grubby 'bait and switch'.
I find an overt bait and switch here…
"If you like music theory then the hidden implication is you think MMJs threads are valuable"

Please now demonstrate that you have enough integrity to sort this out.
Please add my second question to your questionnaire and let people express opinions separately on both aspects.

----

And now a question for moderators please.

I assume MMJ will have the integrity to follow my suggestion, and add the second question, and allow everyone to express their opinions more precisely, instead of everyone being held hostage to 'bait and switch'

IF MMJ decides to not add the second question, is there any good reason why I should not open a second thread that follows my suggestions shown above?

----
p.s.
My personal views on music theory, and music theory discussions… (shortest summary I can think of)

• There's far too much ambiguity over what 'music theory' even means; and so we're talking past each other far too often. All of these words mean something different, music knowledge, music competence, music theory, music symbolism, music notation; and many more ideas that all get scruffily bundled into the vague 'music theory' bag.
• I personally think music theory is brilliant. I love it. It helps me a lot. I would definitely study it even if I wasn't a musician.
• I despise seeing music theory taught badly, or worse being hijacked for personal grandiosity.
  
• No-one will ever convince me that music theory is 'essential' for the many thousands of past, present and future brilliant musicians who very clearly demonstrate that they have musical competence and effective musical knowledge without understanding any musical abstractions whatsoever. It is a grotesque ignorant insult to tell these people they 'must have' music theory.

Cheers

 

Oh ad heesive, sigh

Can't you just demonstrate that you are making a point about reality , instead of some dramatic
Overview of this idea you have ?
If you think " my version "
Of music theory is different than another , can you just demonstrate your point directly?
Point to what you mean.

Besides the fact I never talked about multiple music theories . I'm assuming people here from all over the world learned music theory way before meeting me right ?

"My music theory"
I'd the kind used hundreds years ago all the way up to Everytime I meet up with new person I never met and their using the same music theory as me.

 

Last edited: Dec 11, 2019

Are you absolutely sure you want me to do that? Think carefully before offering a glib reply.

---

and does your dismissive reply mean that you are going to reject the suggestion I made about you revising the questionnaire?
I thought your integrity mattered more than that.

 

Please, " embarrass me" with all your might .
( With your candy corn necklace and rainbow colored clown shoes )
Your a unique pimp alright .

 

Last edited: Dec 11, 2019

i think your idea of this being a "hypnotic bait and click" is overblown to refer to this particular thread. and if so it could then apply to most threads in our forum.

see, here you get a reply here from the op! and you can together develop the discussion further, he will not just vanish. he will follow your thought process. but you opted to not do that..

 

what rubbish.....it just means they had no confidence to begin with

 

Do we need geometry? Without geometry could I build a bookshelf? Sure, if I have a decent grasp of carpentry. Would I be using geometry? Sure, technically, but perhaps not consciously. I'd just figure out where things need to be, how to make them square- geometry doesn't cause right angles and circles to exist, it codifies what they are. Without geometry could I build house? Maybe, if I was talented. Without geometry could I build a cathedral? Maybe, if I was a genius- but probably not. To do something that advanced there's a good chance I'd have to learn a little about what people had done before me, unless I was to recreate all that learning and discovery on my own, which is hardly efficient. Although again, if I were a genius I might get there intuitively. Without geometry could I tell ANYONE ELSE how to do any of those things? No. That's what geometry (and music theory) is- in the sense we're talking about it. There's a lot of sophistry and confusion regarding the difference between ineffable basic ideas and assumptions about how music (western music, for that matter, not a lot of other culture's music) should work and the examination and organization of the principles behind it. Otherwise it's like somehow implying that before Newton gravity didn't actually occur.

 

Please look at these rudimentary subjects in Jazz:

1 - Music Theory Tutorial - Overview
2 - Music Theory Tutorial - Understanding Scales
3 - Music Theory Tutorial - Understanding Modes
4 - Music Theory Tutorial - Understanding Chords and Intervals
5 - Music Theory Tutorial - Understanding Harmony
6 - Music Theory Tutorial - Understanding Swing vs Straight Rhythm
7 - Music Theory Tutorial - Understanding Keys
8 - Music Theory Tutorial - Swing Rhythm in detail
9 - How to Play like Rodrigo y Gabriela (Percussive Strumming) - Overview
10 - Blueberry Hill (Boogie Woogie)
11 - Walking by Myself (Blues/Boogie Woogie)
12 - How to Play Blueberry Hill (Boogie Woogie)
13 - How to Play Walking by Myself (Blues/Boogie Woogie)
14 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Chord Substitution
15 - Common Jazz Chord Progressions Pt I
16 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Chord Progression (12 Bar Blues)
17 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Basslines
18 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Scales for Improvisation
19 - Blues Piano Tutorial - How to Practice Improvising
20 - Blues Piano Tutorial - What Makes a Blues Solo Bluesy?
21 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Riffs/Licks (Part One)
22 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Riffs/Licks (Part Two - Outros)
23 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Jazz 12 Bar Blues Chord Variation
24 - Blues Piano Tutorial - How to Play Wrong Notes
25 - Blues Piano Tutorial - 8 Bar Blues
26 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Chord Extensions & Alterations
27 - How to Play like Rodrigo y Gabriela (Percussive Strumming) - Strumming with a Beat (Pt 1)
28 - How to Play like Rodrigo y Gabriela (Percussive Strumming) - Strumming with a Beat (Pt 2)
29 - How to Play like Rodrigo y Gabriela (Percussive Strumming) - Triplets
30 - How to Play like Rodrigo y Gabriela (Percussive Strumming) - Fan Rasgueos
31 - How to Play like Rodrigo y Gabriela (Percussive Strumming) - Percussion Solos
32 - How to Play like Rodrigo y Gabriela (Percussive Strumming) - Chord Progressions
33 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: Quick Change Blues
34 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: Watermelon Man Blues
35 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: 1930's Blues
36 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: Variation on the 1930's Blues #1
37 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: Variation on the 1930's Blues #2
38 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: Coltrane Minor Blues
39 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: Count Basie Blues
40 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Extending the Blues Scale
41 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: Jazz Blues #1
42 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: Jazz Blues #2
43 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Sharp 9 Chords (The Blues Chord)
44 - Jazz Blues Turnarounds Part I (I, VI, ii, V)
45 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Walking Basslines (Part I)
46 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Walking Basslines (Part II)
47 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Using Multiple Blues Scales
48 - Variations on the Twelve-Bar Blues: Bird Blues
49 - Transitioning from Classical Music to Jazz and Blues
50 - Jazz Blues Turnarounds Part II (iii, VI, ii, V)
51 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Circle of Fifths & Circle Progression
52 - Jazz Improvisation - Guide Tones
53 - Jazz Improvisation - Embellishing the Melody
54 - Jazz Blues Turnarounds Part III (ii, V, iii, VI)
55 - Jazz Blues Turnarounds Part IV (Backdoor & Diminished)
56 - Jazz Blues Turnarounds Part V (One Chord Sus)
57 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Shell Chords
58 - Common Jazz Chord Progressions Pt II
59 - Common Jazz Chord Progressions Pt III
60 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Passing Chords and Approach Chords
61 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Secondary Chords and Tonicisation
62 - Free Jazz Piano Tutorials - Walk That Bass
63 - Jazz Improvisation - Creating and Resolving Tension
64 - Jazz Improvisation - Learning to play 'Inside'
65 - Jazz Improvisation - Avoid Notes
66 - How Chords and Scales are Related - Why a Chord is a Scale (Chord-Scale System)
67 - Jazz Improvisation - Dissonant Intervals
68 - Jazz Improvisation - Targeting and Passing Notes
69 - Jazz Improvisation - Bitonality & Side-Slipping
70 - Jazz Improvisation - Cycled Patterns
71 - Jazz Improvisation - Symmetrical Scales (AKA Ambiguous Scales)
72 - Jazz Improvisation - Cliches & Quoting
73 - Jazz Improvisation - Displacing the Melody
74 - Jazz Improvisation - Tips and Concluding Remarks
75 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Suspended Chords
76 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Left Hand Rootless Voicing
77 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Phrygian Chords
78 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Thelonious Monk Voicings
79 - Why you can use different Scales over the same Chord
80 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Bud Powell Voicings
81 - Jazz Scales - Melodic Minor Modes incl. Altered Scale
82 - Jazz Scales - Melodic Minor Modes Addendum
83 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Three Note Voicings
84 - Blues Piano Tutorial - Minor 6 and Diminished Scales
85 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Open Position (Spread Voicings)
86 - Jazz Scales - Bebop Scales
87 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - So What Chord
88 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Minor II-V-I
89 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Kenny Barron Voicing
90 - Jazz Scales - Wholetone Scale
91 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Herbie Hancock Voicing
92 - How to Turn any Song into a Jazz song - incl. Reharmonization
93 - Jazz Scales - Diminished Scale & Double Diminished Chord
94 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Quartal Chords
95 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Upper Structures
96 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Four Way Close, Locked Hands & Drop 2
97 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Rhythm Changes Explained
98 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Combining Chord Voicings
99 - Jazz Piano Comping - How to Comp
100 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Coltrane Changes Explained
101 - Planning Your Improvisation - Chord Mapping and Common Scales
102 - Selecting Scales for Improvisation
103 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Available Tensions
104 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Available Tensions Example
105 - Reharmonization: How to Reharmonize a Song
106 - Changing the Time Signature of a Jazz Song
107 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Slash Chords
108 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - II-V-I and the Diatonic Function
109 - Jazz Scales - Pentatonic Scale
110 - Modern Jazz - Tonal vs Modal Harmony
111 - Tritone Substitution and Scales
112 - Modern Jazz - Lydian Chromatic Concept
113 - Modal Jazz Explained - Improvisation and Harmony
114 - How Many Scales Are There?
115 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Bird Changes Explained
116 - Modern Jazz - Pandiatonicism
117 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Harmonic Rhythm
118 - Free Jazz and Atonality Explained
119 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Line Cliches
120 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Constant Structures
121 - Post-bop Explained
122 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Modal Interchange and Borrowed Chords
123 - How to Play Jazz: An Overview of Jazz Theory
124 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Circular Songs
125 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Advanced Locked Hands Technique
126 - Reharmonize a Tonal Jazz Song as a Modal Jazz Song
127 - Jazz Scales - Augmented Scale
128 - Modern Jazz - Suppressing the Chord Progression
129 - Modern Jazz - Time, No Changes
130 - Jazz Piano Chord Voicings - Chord Voicing Rules
131 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Polytonality & Polymodality
132 - A Brief Summary of Modern Jazz
133 - Jazz Scales - Minor Scales
134 - How to Use a Lead Sheet (Fake Book)
135 - How to Practice Playing Jazz
136 - Cool Jazz Explained
137 - Jazz Improvisation - Approaches to Improvisation
138 - Hard bop (& Soul Jazz) Explained
139 - Sheets of Sound Explained (John Coltrane)
140 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Contrafacts
141 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Composition and Melodic Development
142 - 1. How Music Works - Acoustics for Musicians
143 - 2. What is Sound?
144 - 3. What is the difference between a Noise and a Note?
145 - 4. Frequency, Wave Shape and Pitch
146 - 5. Amplitude, Phase and Envelope
147 - 6. Beats and Just Noticeable Difference
148 - 7. Why is A 440 Hz?
149 - 8. Do Drums Make a Noise or a Note?
150 - 9. The Overtone Series and Timbre
151 - 10. The Overtone Series and Dissonance
152 - 11. The Missing Fundamental
153 - 12. Why are low notes muddy and high notes weak?
154 - 13. Inharmonicity and Octave Stretching
155 - 14. Infrasound & Ghosts
156 - 15. Avoiding the 7th Harmonic
157 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Voice Leading
158 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - ii-V Substitution
159 - Jazz Improvisation - Bar-line Shift and Superimposition
160 - How to Analyse a Chord Progression (Harmonic Analysis)
161 - Afro-Cuban Latin Jazz Explained
162 - Modern Jazz - Pedal Point Harmony
163 - Early Jazz vs Modern Jazz Piano
164 - Swing Music Explained
165 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Musical Systems
166 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Polychords
167 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Making Mistakes
168 - Modern Jazz - Atonal Harmony
169 - Autumn Leaves - Jazz Piano Cover
170 - Jazz Piano Minimum Requirements
171 - Softly, as in a Morning Sunrise - Jazz Piano Cover
172 - How to Prepare for a Jam Session
173 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Tone Clusters & Secundal Harmony
174 - Blues Harmony vs Western Harmony
175 - Why does the Four Chord Pop Song sound so good?
176 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Modulation
177 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Balance
178 - Jazz-Rock Fusion Explained
179 - Chromaticism and Synthetic Scales
180 - Someday My Prince Will Come Harmonic Analysis
181 - Girl From Ipanema Harmonic Analysis
182 - All of Me Harmonic Analysis
183 - How to Listen to Jazz
184 - I - III7 Chord Progression Explained
185 - Jazz Piano Tutorial - Contiguous ii-V's
186 - How to Develop Your Improvisation from Beginner to Advanced
187 - How to Play Bossa Nova (Afro-Brazilian Jazz Explained)
188 - ii-V7-I Licks and Jazz Improvisation Exercises
189 - How to Play Jazz Piano - Beginner to Advanced
190 - Analysing a Jazz Solo - Straight, No Chaser (Davis, Coltrane, Adderley, Garland, Chambers)
191 - How to Comp for a Vocalist
192 - Chord Voicings and When to Use Them
193 - Top 3 Improvisation Exercises to Improve Your
194 - Gospel-Jazz Techniques and Reharmonisation (Amazing Grace)
195 - Things I Wish I Knew When I First Started Learning Jazz
196 - Jazz for Beginners - Theory
197 - Jazz for Beginners - Practice
198 - The 4 Stages of Improvisation
199 - Jazz Comping Rhythms
200 - How to Play Jazz Blues (Quartal Voicings)
201 - Bebop Explained
202 - How to Play Jazz Blues (Rootless Voicings)
203 - How to Play Summertime (Jazz Piano)
204 - ...
205 - ...
206 - ...
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.
.
1000000 - ...
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Some people think music theory is like a wild horse hard to domesticate (correct in a sense) so they embark on making music without trying to know these idioms. It's ok as long as they make simple music but whenever one wants to elevate his music, doesn't have any choice to learn more.

 

an alcohol-interlock would make wonders for some threads..

 

Only what I need, ie, circle of 5ths for mixes & mashups

 

Of course you didn't because grammar ist part of genetic predetermination (Chomsky). But you still went to school to improve upon it - your post in written words is proof that it worked. Same can be said about music theory.

Sure everyone can chop up a dope break beat and Funk sample and create a beat without music theory.

But what if he wants to expand upon it, replay the bass maybe or add some fly jazzy keys or god forbid add an arch or a middle 8 section.

 

I find the emphasis on jazz theory as the ultimate expression of musical linguistics to be quite exclusionist. Many of the greatest songs of the last sixty years have not been composed using jazz as its method of expression, so why is it necessary for a rock, pop, dance, electronica or hip hop musician to be well versed in jazz? David Bowie had no formal training at all and wrote Heroes (acclaimed as one of the most important songs of the last decade) with only four simple chords, thus eliminating the need for an exceptional knowledge of theory to compose a timeless song.
Have you considered joining a jazz forum where your proselytizing might be deemed useful? Although I'm sure experienced jazz musicians would prefer to read notation on sheet music as opposed to your slightly odd, not to mention voluminous notes that seem to go on ad infinitum.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2019

When i first saw "music theory" and "philosophy" I judged about troll level 7.
But much of it seems legit discussion.

 

Do you intend changing the direction of your current music to reflect traditional jazz intonations? Would it help you connect with your audience? And are you prepared to learn a whole new musical language to achieve this knowing it is probably the most technically challenging style of playing and may take many years to master?