So they matched the speakers perfectly? If so as I said, I am happy to be wrong

 

You're not wrong, you are right, though in my bent way I am suggesting that If I was painting flowers on a canvas for the blind I would use very thick paint and exaggerate the lines of the figures. It could be painted in all black as far as my audience could discern as color would make no obvious difference.

It's a pearls before swine type of thing (not saying either teenagers or blind folk are likened to pigs), but if a song doesn't translate to less than stellar environments then someone's $12,000 studio monitors are solely for personal listening pleasure.

 

That's really it in a nutshell. Headphone speaker simulators can be very good and you can certainly get field placement, level balance and 'base EQ'. I say base EQ because that is going to vary no matter what system or headphones people use.
If the Headphones provide a suitable translation of what the mix engineer is hearing, it probably won't require much more than a little tweaking on a hi-fidelity speaker system.

 

That's funny you're saying that. I got my hand on a few Multitrack sessions of professionally released songs and decided to give them a go.

So I spent 2 hours each on the first day and another hour on a second day (on a period of about 7 - 8 days). to mix and ''master'' them and printed them. 4 different ''known'' songs.

Converted them all to mp3 and upload them to my drive and sent them yesterday the link to my girlfriend and 2 other friends of mine, one of which is a professional musician but was sick.

Long story short, the folder contained the original and my ''re-mix and re-master'' version.

They all picked different choices...I sh!t you not.

When I asked them if the difference was difficult to pick, they all said...''oh no, the difference is very obvious".

After my ''experience'' yesterday, I re-listened to them and I would obviously correct some harshness in the highs on 2 of them but I'm left more confused then I was and the only thing I can agree with them is that yes, the difference are all very obvious.

There's no consensus on which one sound better.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AtfvmPHCKb6a7TafYOhpTNLoRC3g?e=Dytixj

1- R1993
2- R2010
3- R2018
4- T2017


My girlfriend result:
1- 1
2- 2
3- sound the same
4- 2

Friend result:
1- 2
2 -1
3- 2
4- Sound the same

Sick Musician friend result:
1- 1
2- 2
3- 2
4 - Sound the same

I know my girlfriend listened to the songs on a set of cheap ear buds. I believe my friend listened to the songs on a set of cheap computer speakers. My musician friend listened to the songs on a set of AirPods 2 pro.

None of them knew which version was mine.

All of that to say that what is very obvious to all of them in regards to ''better'' mix and master is apparently not that obvious on a blind test in a small group.

I'm pretty sure all of you will also have different opinion.

To me, all of the ''re-mix'' sound A LOT better except some high frequencies harshness on 2 of them that I will probably correct later on today or tomorrow. It's not even close in terms of wideness, punchiness, low frequency translation and mix clarity.

And that was my ''quick'' remix on a set of VSX (without the software), APS Aeon2, DMAX Super Cubes 5 and some cheap wireless earbuds.

Now that I listened to them on my laptop speakers, I don't find them to be that different though. So the ''cheap'' speaker translation idea really fell apart.

EDIT:

Other musician friend that listened to the mixes in his mixing headphones:
1- 2
2- 1
3- 1
4- 2

Other friend that listened to the mix on his phone, his Bose headphones, and his home sound system:
1- 1
2- 1
3- 1
4- 1

Work colleague that listened on a set of Koss Porta Pro:
1- 1
2- 1
3- 1
4- 1

Other House musician friend on Yamaha HS5 :
1- 1
2- 1
3- 2
4- 2

So I'm going to end the test here.

My mixes and Master were all the number 1 and the official professional mix and master for each songs were the number 2.

 

Last edited: May 26, 2023

any love for the focal clear pro ?

 

I love this comment because it really highlights how so much of what we do in audio is placebo based. What one person hears, another doesn't, and there's no real way to change that. I've yet to meet a person who can reliably point out auditory differences (true hardware synth vs software emulation, professional master versus personal master, .WAV vs 320kbps .MP3, the list could go on forever here) in a blind setting. It always comes back to that annoying yet true phrase we're accustomed to hearing: If it sounds good to you (emphasis on YOU), then it *is* good.

 

And that to me is the part I am actually not ready to settle for.

It can't be as simple as ''if I believe it's true then it is true''. That wouldn't be fair for the craft nor the one we turn to in terms of references.

I must admit that what you just stated really triggers a lot of confusion in me and that's not why I'm into music. In my head, I have a goal to achieve and I can't never seem to achieve it because I can always point out to something that could be better.

Don't get me wrong though, I do believe that you might be totally right in that statement (and everyone that lives by it).

I think I'm just not ready to admit that in the end, all of the ''reknown'' mixes are just a big gimmick of group influenced by ''x'' (group of people, business or whatever conspiracy we can come up with) and we all follow like a bunch of sheeps.

It has to be more scientifical and verifiable then that. It has to be or all of this is just BS.

In the end, with that ''test'' I just did, I'm just more confused then I was before I tried.

I don't even know what to understand from it and that alone is pure f#ckery.

 

Oh, and don't forget to pick up a pair of Sony MDR-7506.
Very "standard" easy to drive and can take a beating, too.
The earpads could be better, but for the price..
Don't put off getting something better if the budget is tight, but when you have a chance...
It's great to have a set of 4 in the studio along with 4 SM58s (& a couple of SM57s,too).
Affordable but they pass the bar..

 

That is a really interesting test and a reinforcement that people simply like what they like.

I suppose if you put ten engineers with a wide variety of professional genre/style experience in mixing, you would get different results yet again. This would be because some would use their ears just like your friends and others would do a myriad of spectral and mix analytics.
However, the engineers would also do the full frequency critique as well.

If you break it down to the lowest common denominator, if the person calling the shots is the music creator, it really only matters that they like it. This is of course taking into account they are not aiming at marketing/selling in a popular music style.
Music is a wonderful beast.
A person has two options really. People say there are more, but really there are only two.
You are making music with the intent to try and sell it or make money or you are making it only for the art. Each of these will always have a different endgame. If for the art, only you have to like it and it does not matter what anyone else thinks. The other, you have to be a people pleaser.

Kudos for doing a test like this.

 

Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2023

So is there any other option then sucking cocks to make music a business to live in or do you absolutely have to bow down to any preconceive theories that were set in stone by the said archaic control freaks that said that everything need to be done in a fashion or it's not acceptable???

In a more polite way, my ''40 years old crisis'' is wondering what's the point in innovation if it needs to go through a past date mixing technique that is accepted by the masses as an absolute truth when many less known mixing engineer have created better mixes in (to quote you) ''frequency critique'' part of it (without forgetting the stereo field use, the loudness implementation without obvious distortion, the intelligibility of the different elements per popular devices used in the commercial market.)

In my point of view, I've proven that I can do it better then the ''seasoned professional'' in every single mix I presented here. Is it debatable from someone that don't know how to use a volume knob on his device ? Sure !!!

That was 3 hours max per song. Yet, what we understood is that my 3 first friends listened to the mixes on their cellphone speakers or didnt pay attention at all or lack knowledge of what a mix quality can be based out of (there's no other logical explanations as the differences are HUGE)

The only one that really took the time to listen to the mixes across different devices had an impartial opinion about the result of the alternative mixes I provided.

My point is, to come back to the original subject, that a headphone mix is cool. A Headphone and Studio monitors is probably better. But in the end, if you don't pay a cock sawker to master it and pass it around, its probably not worth investing more then what you already have for yourself given the price of the alternative tools because let's be honest, you can have a great sounding song that is very enjoyable for the masses but if you don't have all the cock sawkers tool (mixing cock sawker, mastering cock sawker, marketing cock sawker, distribution cock sawker, etc etc etc cock sawker) with you at the same time for the same project, you will probably spend money for no reason other then fulfilling a dream of yours. Cause If I can do what I just did, ANYONE ...and I really need to underline it and put in bold ANYONE CAN DO THIS!!!


I'm not special, never was and never will.

 

That is a form of extreme relativism.
In effect, if the creator or a few people think it sounds good it actually DOES sound good, and there are no objective standards of quality or comparison or greater consensus by which anyone can judge it.
To say that,because you have "done it", (or so you believe) that anyone, (ANYONE) can do it is also BS. Again that is to say that there are NO objective standards of ANY type by which anyone can judge...
...except, of course, the creator or some specially-appointed group (appointed by YOU, in this case).
Don't you see how in your claim you actually appoint yourself as the supreme and infallible cock sawker?

Come on...employ a bit more critical thinking

 

So to follow your reasoning, then if I believe it sound good with verifiable group then it does sound good so therefor it does sound good.

So again per your reasoning, im the supreme cock sawker.

Or are you saying you are the supreme cock sawker because not anyone can do it so therefor critical reasoning would teach us that we cannot base our judgement other then pure f#ckery.

If thats so, still, are you the supreme cock sawker? If not, who is it?

If me and my friend aren't the supreme cock sawkers, who are the less then intelegible, mono compliant, 1960's mix cock sawkers master of ?

If the 1960's mono cock sawkers are defined to be the supreme reference just ''because'', why are we listening in different devices that dont transmit the signal as seen on most popular devices nowadays.

Whats up with the critical thinking then? Are we still talking the same language or did we went from headphones to Mono Auratone compliant cock sawkers?

 

Every so often, each of us gets completely misread.

Considering I have been doing it at least as long, I was merely stating the way things are.
Record labels and royalty collection agencies like ASCAP bent over to places like Spotify and iTunes instead of litigating them like they did Napster in the 90s over copyright payment theft, so we are faced with an industry that is extortion-based with popular music. One where streaming pays less than 100th than what a deal with a label would have in the 20th Century.
My statements are simple. You do for the masses or for yourself. My signature below which has been there for years says as much...
“I think that any artistic decision that is based on whether or not you are going to make money it is not really an artistic decision. It is a business decision"
- Frank Zappa (sic)

The environment in the 21st Century has dictated this. In no way was I criticising your efforts, or I would not have put the word 'Kudos'. The mere fact I mentioned engineers and others indicate not limiting to one set of examples which is critical thought. Different - is not the same as better or worse, only different. I have no energy to waste comparing others with you, me or anyone else, because it is a waste of time. It is only a knowledge that others will not see or hear the same as any of us.

You completely took it the wrong way.

P.S - The only competition in music and life is to be better tomorrow than you are today, not with anything or anyone else. People worldwide have shown that not everyone hears or likes the exact same things, so there is no one-size-fits-all.

 

Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2023

I think there was some misunderstanding here.

I don't understand why you would think I took it the wrong way when I was just adding to your statement and was talking about myself and the music business.

I'm re-reading my answer that I put after quoting an interesting simple opinion you submitted and I'm trying to figure out why you would think I pointed you out ( you thinking I thought you were criticizing me while I never felt like that. Quite the opposite actually) while all I was doing is bringing up some question in regards to your theory.

Just to make things clear, on my side, it's not an ego thing so the whole ''me vs the world'' doesn't apply here at all which is why I took the time to specifically write the words ''I'm not special, never was and never will.'' and the ''anyone can do this'' ( please take a reserve on the ''anyone'', I base myself on the general fact that we all understand that someone should be able to handle a mouse and a computer while it should be understood that not everyone actually can)

What I was adding to what I understood of your generic and popular thought process and that you just repeated is, (and I'm going to over simplify it to make sure everyone understand the idea I'm bringing) '' Why do we care about what's being recognized as best by X group authority ( Grammy's , or whatever entity that said they would judge art based out of their own specific criteria) when all that should be said and done is bettering one self and doing it better ( by our own criteria) then others in the never ending process of bettering ourself''. The comparison to others being made to understand what are the limits and how we can break them to make it better, not to step on anyone's head to say I'm better then you but to give us an objective to get better as everyone should be able to learn from each others. And there's tools to actually measure those ''bettering'' which we can actually look at analyze for us to better ourself and understand what can be done and what are the compromise. Again, not to say I'm better then X(person) but to say, I did it better then X (song, album, whatever).

Now based on the first idea, the second idea I was sharing is that its not worth investing in only one aspect of the music business ( being mastering, for example but it could be whichever really) and not investing in others if the goal is to make a living out of it. The whole prostitute package should be bought in that case.

If the idea is to make music for yourself , then obviously there would be no good or bad decision. We could actually hire Mia Khalifa to Mix our songs and that would be equally interesting in the aspect of art creation and the story behind it. At least to my criteria given the experience I just did.

In that aspect, and that's where I believe I might have lost both of you , mixing in headphones and picking our favourite ones is such a personal choice that my 50$ Wireless ear buds might be the best mixing tool for myself even over my Aeon 2 or my Reference 207. And that might explain the look in the face of people that are not knowledgeable in the technicality of music engineering when I try to explain them why this set of speakers is used and the other one , and the other one and how equally important it is for me to listen to the same song on Airpods as much as it is on my Mastering system.

That's where the ''f#ckery'' comment came in.

So I don't know if I took it wrong or you understood me wrong but one thing is for sure, if you still think I'm taking it personally, please let me know so I can try to explain the shift in direction in the cool but simple idea you are quoting that we all heard before.

To over over over simplify, what I was saying is, I'm making decision based out of the tools I have and the people listening to it listen to those decision on the cheapest devices and I'm here trying to find the best headphones while all I need is a set of Airpods and a wireless Bose mono kitchen countertop sound system.

 

Glad to see this thread is still going strong! After spending a some time learning my Neumann NDH 30 headphones I would totally recommend them, as they are analytical and it's easy to correct technical mix problems, and the bass can be mixed without the need for a sub. They would work well alongside HD6XX or Shure SRH1840, etc.

 

Last edited: May 24, 2023

@BaSsDuDe and @Martel you are going completely off topic, please, continue your conversation using private messages or create a new thread for this topic.

 

I recently bought the Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro headphones as open back cans to compliment my closed back Audio Technica ATH-M50X headphones. I couldn't be happier, and feel like I now own a solid and reliable pair of open and closed back sets that I'd be happy to recommend to anyone, so it's no surprise that the pro industry is littered with users of these two!

However, I did have a bit of a wobble and considered the Slate VSX

 

Last edited: May 26, 2023

Besides the Hi-X65 i bought and am happy about i would have considered a DT 900 Pro X or a Ndh30 in 2023 in a mid price range.

 

any professional studio grade headphone will do. I use AKG 701s, beyer dt880, and audio technica athm50x. the more important thing is to use sonarworks or dsoniq correction software on the 2buss. but yeah, any will do.

 

@Uncle Daddy I agree to a certain extent. But instead of using correction software u could also get a preset for your headphone for free to eq it at the end of mixbus chain. Works similar i would say: https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/