MOZEE
"This thread is mildly entertaining but it can not really go too much further. A discussion like this is interesting when you have equally matched brains and argumentation, the problem is the internet is place where pretty much anyone has a voice, and people come into things like this without the training to try to limit their confirmation bias into their arguments.

The only statistically significant observation that I can take out of this tread is that loud and obnoxious religious extremism just creates more loud and obnoxious extremism somewhere else. Atheism in itself is a form of religion (it requires faith and conviction especially since humanity is thought to be a disential species where slight schizophrenia is the normal state of humans.)

All the pressure created from the late 70s by the resurgence of American Evangelism has only created other groups even further of the edges of the spectrum of hardcore fundamentalism from every group including atheists and beardie weirdies of every creed.

Que serra, serra."




MOZEE IS GOD I FOUND THE ANSWER!

 

You went from interesting troll in no time flat.

I appreciate all the effort that took, and I really appreciate the call out (it might have been fun but it was done with the wrong bait so it got boring too fast.) I made observations and comments, take it or leave it, Dr. Google it (Buddhism is a religion that in its reductive state is a form nihilistic atheism, it still requires faith and conviction - you have to believe in it in stead of something else.) As soon as you get into the believe in something you have a religion. The difference between the atheism you expound and a more pure model of nonthesit theological noncognitivism which can not be considered a religion since its a final conclusion and there is nothing left to talk about, is that you feel the need to have an argument.... that is what makes it a religion. It takes faith to make an argument, conviction means that you have faith even in the absence of proof for or against.

Anyway, you just proved my point. I wasn't necessarily talking to you but in support of you in regards to other including faulty arguments. regardless you've managed to show that even the side of the coin we polish is sometimes as flaws as side we do not.

Cheers man, enjoy the day and have a good night.

Love the memes BTW and I do appreciate all the effort.

 

I will put it simply. I can neither prove nor be truly sure there is a God. But having interacted so many times with gifted people who can transcend their abilities and skills when doing their thing, for me this inexplicable event is a little manifestation of the divine. I mean wtf, i have a solo i laid down on tape when i was 16 yo. I have spent another 35 years trying to figure out how on earth could i possibly ever play that lol. Some people call it "the magic of the moment" , some others would add it was "beginner's luck" and some others would yet add that luck is when God is showing you his "best mood". Whatever it is that defines those "ET" moments, it's beyond logical assumption and human reason or scientific explanation that i am aware of. In my sense, which of course i do not expect you to empathize, it is the "soul taking command" on these moments and not the brain. But hold on, if there is such a thing as a soul then there is a God or at least a "higher, sane plane of energy" in this world. So i guess this makes me a Theist right? I can admit to being one then, though allow me not to vote on this. Because apart from choosing to believe, i despise how human religions have boiled down to profitable enterprises and their leaders are hailed as "kings". Whatever happened to the modesty of the "hierarchs" ? So Theist yes, but not mainstream or polarized enough to take part. You either choose to believe or you don't. Both are acceptable. Why distinguish ? I find people who believe to be generally happier, more resilient and patient and satisfied with whatever it is that life has thrown at them so far. On the other hand, i find people who don't believe to be more resourceful, more clever in many ways and often have a well educated background and deductive mind which makes them most of the times interesting persons. Different qualities different people, both are fine with me anyway.
Cheers
PS:Personally,i think everybody believes in the divine. Denying the signs because of no scientific proof makes no difference in my book. Subjective as it may be, when you are able to spot the genius and the artistry in the music that has preceded you, and are able to "carry" a tiny bit from it over to whatever it is that you are making, you have been touched by God.

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017

i dont get what your saying i was joking around because i thought you were messing around trying to inject some humor in there you got points to make errr?


"I made observations"

didnt see any




"and comments, take it or leave it, Dr. Google it (Buddhism is a religion that in its reductive state is a form nihilistic atheism, it still requires faith and conviction - you have to believe in it in stead of something else.) As soon as you get into the believe in something you have a religion."

that may be the case about Buddhism, thats not me or anyone i know of here.





"As soon as you get into the believe in something you have a religion."
sure, that something is called GOD



"The difference between the atheism you expound and a more pure model of nonthesit theological noncognitivism which can not be considered a religion since its a final conclusion and there is nothing left to talk about, is that you feel the need to have an argument.... that is what makes it a religion."

okay, so all situations now for which you write words to describe your position is religion







"It takes faith to make an argument, conviction means that you have faith even in the absence of proof for or against."

argument

[ahr-gyuh-muh nt]

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation:
a violent argument.
2.
a discussion involving differing points of view; debate:
They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.
3.
a process of reasoning; series of reasons:
I couldn't follow his argument.
4.
a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point:
This is a strong argument in favor of her theory.
5.
an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.
6.
subject matter; theme:
The central argument of his paper was presented clearly.
7.
an abstract or summary of the major points in a work of prose or poetry, or of sections of such a work.


you can read my hundreds of posts for which i describe that every single thought idea or proposition you ever have in your life ever, is fiction UNLESS you have demonstrable evidence to show that it is not fiction.

if to you that is faith , you are using the word in such a way as opposite to 7.3 billion humans around you.

 

"
I will put it simply. I can neither prove nor be truly sure there is a God. But having interacted so many times with gifted people who can transcend their abilities and skills when doing their thing, for me this inexplicable event is a little manifestation of the divine. I mean wtf, i have a solo i laid down on tape when i was 16 yo. I have spent another 35 years trying to figure out how on earth could i possibly ever play that lol. Some people call it "the magic of the moment" , some others would add it was "beginner's luck" and some others would yet add that luck is when God is showing you his "best mood". Whatever it is that defines those "ET" moments, it's beyond logical assumption and human reason or scientific explanation that i am aware of. In my sense, which of course i do not expect you to empathize, it is the "soul taking command" on these moments and not the brain. But hold on, if there is such a thing as a soul then there is a God or at least a "higher, sane plane of energy" in this world. So i guess this makes me a Theist right? I can admit to being one then, though allow me not to vote on this. Because apart from choosing to believe, i despise how human religions have boiled down to profitable enterprises and their leaders are hailed as "kings". Whatever happened to the modesty of the "hierarchs" ? So Theist yes, but not mainstream or polarized enough to take part. You either choose to believe or you don't. Both are acceptable. Why distinguish ? I find people who believe to be generally happier, more resilient and patient and satisfied with whatever it is that life has thrown at them so far. On the other hand, i find people who don't believe to be more resourceful, more clever in many ways and often have a well educated background and deductive mind which makes them most of the times interesting persons. Different qualities different people, both are fine with me anyway.
Cheers
PS:Personally,i think everybody believes in the divine. Denying the signs because of no scientific proof makes no difference in my book. Subjective as it may be, when you are able to spot the genius and the artistry in the music that has preceded you, and are able to "carry" a tiny bit from it over to whatever it is that you are making, you have been touched by God.
"



"I will put it simply. I can neither prove nor be truly sure there is a God."

i was there myself for quite a long time.



"But having interacted so many times with gifted people who can transcend their abilities and skills when doing their thing, for me this inexplicable event is a little manifestation of the divine. I mean wtf, i have a solo i laid down on tape when i was 16 yo. I have spent another 35 years trying to figure out how on earth could i possibly ever play that lol. Some people call it "the magic of the moment" , some others would add it was "beginner's luck" and some others would yet add that luck is when God is showing you his "best mood"."


thats called "ignorance" or " i dont know" that IS the answer if it is actually the case we dont know , it would be a fallacy to pretend like that equals evidence for something, it is only what you DO know that counts for something.





"Whatever it is that defines those "ET" moments, it's beyond logical assumption and human reason or scientific explanation that i am aware of."


nah, you just dont know what it is thats okay, for example what if when you were 16 it just so happened your fingers landed perfectly navigating the pentatonic scale which was correct for each chord change the middle position shapes of the pentatonic are symmetrical and very simple shape the odds of this happening are actually higher then the one time when you were 16 . Im just showing one plausible explanation that fits perfectly with reality based on the way our fingers work combined with the shape on the guitar that pentaonic works combined with the way music theory itself works. there are thousand sof explanation likes that you just dont know what one it actually is and " i dont know" is what the correct answer is sometimes.

"But hold on, if there is such a thing as a soul then there is a God or at least a "higher, sane plane of energy" in this world. So i guess this makes me a Theist right?"

it sure sounds like it ( just to note i used to believe what you are saying right now way back and i was a theist so i know where you coming from)






"I can admit to being one then, though allow me not to vote on this. Because apart from choosing to believe, i despise how human religions have boiled down to profitable enterprises and their leaders are hailed as "kings". Whatever happened to the modesty of the "hierarchs" ? So Theist yes, but not mainstream or polarized enough to take part. You either choose to believe or you don't. Both are acceptable."


theist in the poll just means you belive in gods souls afterlives that is all









"Why distinguish ? I find people who believe to be generally happier, more resilient and patient and satisfied with whatever it is that life has thrown at them so far."




the reason to distinguish boils down to what is the way things actually work in reality or the truth value of it, also to differentiate between reality and fiction in human thought.


sometimes, sometimes its the opposite for others , you have a entire range of experiences in that area for theists and atheists







"On the other hand, i find people who don't believe to be more resourceful, more clever in many ways and often have a well educated background and deductive mind which makes them most of the times interesting persons. Different qualities different people, both are fine with me anyway.
Cheers "

just going by your comment i agree but there are other things to consider also if you check out the thread it is in there if you would like to tanks for coming in kind sir.

"



"
"PS:Personally,i think everybody believes in the divine. Denying the signs because of no scientific proof makes no difference in my book. Subjective as it may be, when you are able to spot the genius and the artistry in the music that has preceded you, and are able to "carry" a tiny bit from it over to whatever it is that you are making, you have been touched by God."




i can understand where your coming from there seems to be a type of thing built into us to want to believe for sure i def want an afterlife to be true and souls and such terribly even though reality does not agree with me thank you for your comments.

one more thing i can show you how to have no mysteries in music anymore forever by learning the language of how it works in this video series that is free and complete

this is video number 1 if you go through all them you will know the language of music how and why every song works the way it does and be able to play any song you know and why it was written that way, also you will realize there is no magic with music its just right now you don't know the language but you can learn pretty quick how it works.

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017

Firstly, I didn't read all posts after seeing some funny ones. So, pardon me if I repeat the thing you already mentioned.

TL;DR; I'm an theist and I say it's logical. Atheism has just sociological and psychological reasons.

I've spent some long time with atheist friends and in debate groups, so I feel tired about this subject. Questions are always the same just like answers but it depends on the person to accept the answers or not. There are only 2 options. Universe is created by a conscious power or just came incidentally.
Let's make an analogy. You walked in to your room and see a tower by your 4-5 books. You may think, you kept open the window and it was windy, then some specific books fell off and they became like a tower incidentally, or you may think somebody did it. It's just your call. Or let's say you have a safe case with 6 digits password. I came to your house and opened it at my first try. Is it possible? Yes, I have 1/10^6 chance. But, do you think I opened it with my luck or I was already knowing the pass? You understood me. We already meet such situations many times in our daily life and we accept the big possibility. We ignore tiny possibilites. It's logical. We're having these decisions everytime. Is universe become by itself, without a conscious behind it? Yes, that's possible and as I know it's smaller than 1/10^40. Hence, I'm a simple man and I don't think much about that chance. Still I read about scientific news. Though they are giving me more proofs.

I also understand why so many people are atheist. Religious people are mostly the worst examples of human being. We know some atheists are more ethical than a religious ones. Because for many people, religion is just a tradition, without reading and understanding. So it's a normal thing not wanting to be like them. That's why I say being an atheist has sociological and psychological reasons.

I don't trust my English enough and you're writing really long to me. So I'm sorry in advance, if I miss any reply to me.

 

you have goods points for sure.





"so I feel tired about this subject. Questions are always the same just like answers but it depends on the person to accept the answers or not."


check through the beginning of the thread i have different arguments








"There are only 2 options. Universe is created by a conscious power or just came incidentally."





i dont know if i accept that i can imagine right now a 3rd option , at one point we didn't know our galaxy was inside something, now we are finding out the same is for universe however the structure is wildly different that can lead to the universe being directly caused by some other explosion of another object with different laws of nature for example .

what im saying is probably a small point though for you but still just saying.




"
Let's make an analogy. You walked in to your room and see a tower by your 4-5 books. You may think, you kept open the window and it was windy, then some specific books fell off and they became like a tower incidentally, or you may think somebody did it. It's just your call. Or let's say you have a safe case with 6 digits password. I came to your house and opened it at my first try. Is it possible? Yes, I have 1/10^6 chance. But, do you think I opened it with my luck or I was already knowing the pass? You understood me. We already meet such situations many times in our daily life and we accept the big possibility. We ignore tiny possibilites. It's logical. We're having these decisions everytime. Is universe become by itself, without a conscious behind it? Yes, that's possible and as I know it's smaller than 1/10^40. Hence, I'm a simple man and I don't think much about that chance. Still I read about scientific news. Though they are giving me more proofs.

I also understand why so many people are atheist. Religious people are mostly the worst examples of human being. We know some atheists are more ethical than a religious ones. Because for many people, religion is just a tradition, without reading and understanding. So it's a normal thing not wanting to be like them. That's why I say being an atheist has sociological and psychological reasons.

I don't trust my English enough and you're writing really long to me. So I'm sorry in advance, if I miss any reply to me.[/QUOTE]"


i very much identify with your points here and are important issues to fathom for sure.

 

A Quick word on Ignorance or "I dont know"
---------------

Many times human being are not satisfied with not knowing and sometimes we accidentally irrationally try to turn our " i dont knows" into "X is possible, plausible, or probable but that is false , it is what we KNOW that can demonstrate something is possible probable or plausible never ignorance , yes it is not satisfying, but even less is convincing yourself that you have an answer that really is not one and prevents you from advancing that area of knowledge further and possibly finding out ( you can possibly find out by continuing to learn but if you stop you cannot learn more and possibly find out)

the foundation of gods souls and afterlives beliefs and faith is " i don't know" or "ignorance"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity


these 2 fallacies deal with "i dont know " casing problems with rationality when we try to stack i dont knows or say the ignorance means something else.



you dont think the foundation of gods souls and afterlives are " i dont know" ?answer this


what is god made of? where is god located? what is it like in the day in life of god?
what is the soul made of? what are the parts of the soul? how does the soul connect to the brain? if god or the soul has no body what keeps it together? these are things that would be known if person stated gods souls and afterlives are real based on anything besides " i dont know"

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017

I'm going to have to disagree with that. Buddhism is an idealology, not a religion. for it to be a religion, there would need to be a god. Spiritual and religious are not the same thing. Just because you believe in something, it does not equate to it being a religion. One can have faith, conviction and belief in oneself, it doesn't make one a religion.

 

the debate theism/atheism is non-sensical: atheist would have to prove a negative fact, which is impossible, and theists would have to show or prove God, Who is a Spirit and non-material.
So I guess, the only proof is in the eating of the pudding. atheists will believe in God, while burning in Hell, while theist will be confirmed in their beliefs when entering heaven.

Cheers

 

@MMJ2017
For the fun of it I'll give my answers to your "ultimate" questions:

>> what is god made of?
God is made of consciousness

>> where is god located?
Everywhere, universes appear within his/her consciousness

>> what is it like in the day in life of god?
It is still going on

>> what is the soul made of?
Consciousness

>> what are the parts of the soul?
There are no parts, there is only illusion of the same soul appearing as separate within individuals

>> how does the soul connect to the brain?
It permeates through the brain

>> if god or the soul has no body what keeps it together?
Power of imagination, while it lasts the creation is his/her body

>> these are things that would be known if person stated gods souls and afterlives are real based on anything besides " i dont know"
There you have it ;-)

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017

Wow, thats exactly how i think about it. At least the part with tradition and without understanding the meaning. But to be an atheist can't be a choice. Don't think an atheist sits down and thinks about beeing atheist. No! Its just the result of direct and indirect logical processes which have no start and no end. Every person gets confronted with uncountable questions and answers about religious facts. But it seems only atheists have the cognitive ability to end up with disbelieve. Its more like a feeling or an anticipation. Your brain does it. And you can't do anything about it.

Imagine all people around telling you a rabbit brings the eastereggs and sweets every year at the same time. But someday you see the same sweets brand in the super market. Soon you realize rabbits can't lay eggs. You think about the fact that it would be impossible to reach all the kids with this many eggs and sweets. And boom! The magic disappears in a second. You need just enough indices and the will to give up the opinions all around you to get there. Thats all!

And about tradition i have to say: Yes! Many people around me - especially female coworkers who also got kids like me - complain how they hate to go to church. I allways ask: "Why are you doing it then?" And they allways say: "Its for the kids. We don't want them to be excluded." And then you ask: "Do your kids like it at least!" Answer: "No, they hate it too!" And it ends allways beeing me shaking the head and losing a bit more believe in sanity and reason.

 

Everything you answered could be anything but god. So everything our fantasy creates exists like god?

It needs only one cut to damage your brain resulting in you being like an animal without the ability to imagine anymore? Where is god then? Or imagine you were born on a separated island elsewhere with no influence of religion. The story, the picture and even the idea of god doesn't even exist. Will you go to heaven or to hell?

And that is how an atheist thinks. Its a tiny representation of the process that builds up your disbelieve. Even when i still was a a kid thousends of such lines of thought martered me in my spare time.

 

@MMJ2017 You clearly do not have native mastery of the English language since you demomstrate difficulty understanding what some respondents are writing. But I commend you for having the guts to write at a high level of enquiry. I do though recommend that you up-skill your English language reading and writing abilities so that you can better understand other and also to express yourself in English.

 

On the contrary it can only be god, although not in a sense religions would chose to tell the story.
When god's imagination flows it appears real to a limited mind. When our imagination flows it takes a lot of effort to make it real but it is doable and limited compared to the cosmic flow, nevertheless we enjoy inventing stuff.

Stars explode, brains die... the eternal flow of consciousness.
There are numerous entities that cannot experience a flow of imagination (and concepts that arise form it) because they aren't conscious enough.
A part of the whole cannot go anywhere. There is no heaven or hell.
Although, practically speaking, to some extent we can make this planet heaven or hell. It's up to us.

 

It sounds like you have just created your own religion. Thats legitim. But my thoughts refered to the big religions tought by the churches. Its one creative way to handle the inconsistency of christianity or other main religions by interpreting the plot holes. For me its kind of daydreaming. Feel free to explain the world as a video game or a simulation. Or as a virtual world like in the Matrix. But its worthless to put your energy into these theories, because you'll than never be able to prove it. Like a water bear will never realize what the eiffel tower is.

But as i mentioned. I'am happy about every person who founds its way to live a nice life. As long as you don't want me to adapt or to follow your idea, i appreciate it.

I also have to correct myself. In a former posting i wrote: "Only the atheist has the cognitive ability to end up with disbelieve." That sounds a bit ignorant. I also could write: "Only the believer has the cognitive abillity to end the process of thinking with believing in god."

By the way. Yesterday i visited my parents. My mom made a joke by handing over a easter present. It was a little chocolate sheep from Lindt. Not the usually white one but rather with black fur. "Her is a little black sheep for my little black sheep of the familiy!", she said. That was funny, because it also belongs to this thread.

 

Yes, but it only matters if it has a (negative/detrimental) impact. Belief in a god is distinct from religion. In and of itself, belief in god doesn't seem to have any impact or import imo.

Aye, religion, not a belief in god.

Yes, but for me folk believe what they do and then find reasons to justify it. Not the other way around. The Bible, for instance, could be interpreted in infinitely various ways.....it *could* produce a culture that was remarkably benign, generous, peaceful, wise and Christian.....or it could produce monstrous tyranny.

 

While i love to debate about god/gods or the non existence thereof, i'm not really fond of having such topics on here, as this is a site for music production. Or did i miss something?
More often then not, such discussions do end with a lot of participants being and/or feel hurt, getting mad at each other and generally that could translate badly into other topics. So one believer might choose to ignore to join a topic or refuse to help out with his knowledge,when he sees that the topic was posted by a non believer from whom he felt offended by his opinion on the Theist/Atheist thread or vice versa.

 

@MMJ2017
Well, you say nothing bad but you possibly seem to forget i am 51yo and a professional musician all my life. While i welcome any new knowledge, i am sorry but the video posted is no news to me. And surely no theory lesson will ever explain how a 16 yo kid played almost twice faster than he would ever possibly could. Miracles happen everyday. You may choose to ignore them or try to reason scientifically with them, or be "naive" and hand it to God for letting those miracles happen. Personally, i have been back and forth for decades about "is there or is there not a God". After my late 30s i found that it just makes me sleep better to let the more troublesome thoughts and questions resolve themselves with a little help from the divine, if this makes any sense to you. Convenience ? Perhaps. I call it belief.
I personally think being an artist and an atheist is a contradictory state of existence. But hey, God works in mysterious ways hehehe. Creation to me, walks side by side with the Divine. But it's just my opinion which i will not force upon anyone.
You be well
PS: I don't practice religion, at least in the usual way. For me, "church" is all around us. Cheers

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017