I can give you a real life experience at first hand. When i was 9 years old i almost suffocated by a drunken uncle who slept right next to me in his bed. He just turnt around and layed his heavy body over me and his upper arm above my face. He also was in delirium or kinda unconscious so he didn't recognize that my mouth and nose were covered. This incident got burnt into my mind like the clearest experience. As my subconsciousness reacted to the dangerous situation, i awoke from a dream like feeling right into panic. There was no last breath or anything. I just tried to turn or move. But no way to get out. It was also impossible to lift his shoulder because my arms were unmovable under his weight.

And now comes the really nice part. After some seconds of fighting and struggling, a feeling of self-abandonment appeared. It was so nice and sweet. You wouldn't believe it. And as more seconds passed, the feeling of happiness raised to a level where i realized - even as a kid - that it would be a great thing to just give in! There was warmth and a luminous glare but nothing like a god or heaven. There was only a clear imagination of death. I knew for sure: this is the way to die and it will be easy. No hope. No anything. And most important: NO FEAR! Just the idea of a fearless end.

So it was my lucky moment when he moved back just a little bit to give me some air. I shouted to my grandma. I cried. And when she appeared she eventually rescued me. (And don't ask why he was so drunk. He allways was when i slept over at my granny.)

But my very own experience is an evidence that you won't see god - even if he stands right in front of you by the definition of most believers - if you not believe in him. I never ever interpreted something in this incident. It just decreased my fear to die. And I actually hate the fact that gullible people construe things in their experiences just to feel better or to prove their believes. And this fact alone describes how biased and exaggerated a book like the bible has to be by definition.

Even scientific research has approved that people of different religions and believes saw different gods and phenomenons in NDEs according to their requirements. Its nothing more than a trick of your brain to tame the panic in front of death.

 

"
I can give you a real life experience at first hand. When i was 9 years old i almost suffocated by a drunken uncle who slept right next to me in his bed. He just turnt around and layed his heavy body over me and his upper arm above my face. He also was in delerium or kinda unconscious so he didn't recognize that my mouth and nose were covered. This incident got burnt into my mind like the clearest experience. As my subconsciousness reacted to the dangerous situation, i awoke from a dream like feeling right into panic. There was no last breath or anything. I just tried to turn or move. But no way to get out. It was also impossible to lift his shoulder because my arms were unmovable under his weight.

And now comes the really nice part. After some seconds of fighting and struggling, a feeling of self-abandonment appeared. It was so nice and sweet. You wouldn't believe it. And as more seconds passed, the feeling of happiness raised to a level where i realized - even as a kid - that it would be a great thing to just give in! There was warmth and a luminous glare but nothing like a god or heaven. There was only a clear imagination of death. I knew for sure: this is the way to die and it will be easy. No hope. No anything. And most important: NO FEAR! Just the idea of a fearless end.

So it was my lucky moment when he moved back just a little bit to give me some air. I shouted to my grandma. I cried. And when she appeared she eventually rescued me. (And don't ask why he was so drunk. He allways was when i slept over at my granny.)

But my very own experience is an evidence that you won't see god - even if he stands right in front of you by the definition of most believers - if you not believe in him. I never ever interpreted something in this incident. It just decreased my fear to die. And I actually hate the fact that gullible people construe things in their experiences just to feel better or to prove their believes. And this fact alone describes how biased and exaggerated a book like the bible has to be by definition.

Even scientific research has approved that people of different religions and believes saw different gods and phenomenons in NDEs according to their requirements. Its nothing more than a trick of your brain to tame the panic in front of death."









thank you for sharing this, it is very important

 

I have spent many uncounted years studying NDE's with the desperate hope to find a way to kling onto the idea of gods souls and afterlives having evidence , after all that time this is the reality i was forced to accept against my own will ( to be honest with myself)

NDE is evidence that a mind requires a brain there is direct connection like a dvd with scratch on it and the movie skips, damage your brain 100 percent changes your consciousness. now if NDE showed a man got his head chopped off and his consciousness stayed the same NDE would being saying something,

NDE is evidence that when approaching death chemicals hormones and endorphins are released to prevent terrible panic and anxiety ( at least we go out with comfort) this is why our experience radically changes yet feels so real we can have lucid dreams that feel MORE real then normal state as well.

there is ZERO evidence in NDE of universal truth of gods souls and afterlives, those who actually claim them as part of it vary to the individual and 100 percent based on their up bringing and exposure , there are no cave walls for example dated to 80,000 b.c. with a picture of jesus christ on the cross next to a pillow ( picture of person seeing jesus or any myth figure they couldn't have known about in their NDE)

 

we don't need the fiction storytelling of illiterate 2000 year old peasants to have meaning in our lives, to have morality with an actual objective foundation, to have human progress in society to have comfort in life , to have get together (festivals rock concerts plays), we don't need the fiction storytelling of illiterate 2000 year old peasants to appreciate art good music and tender love. in fact all we need it for is to appreciate those sets of books for what they actually are in reality, the expression of human condition at the time and context the way they lived , how they managed to get by .( besides we have The Walking Dead anyway!...............and if you get real bored you can always read the TV remote manual........... whoops!)

 

I will now make the case for

Secular Objective Morality-------

Morality is a word , which describes the interactions of human beings in such a way as a society is possible.
(think about it you don't view strangers like family and friends if a moral system didn't develop naturally the population would be limited to small groups because everyone not your friends and family would be "others" or the "out group" much can be said on the topic of xenophobia , however o want to zero in on this topic.

Human beings minds and bodies work in a very specific way in this reality and we have no control over it, what is harmful or helpful physically ,psychologically and emotionally is objective based on how our bodies and brains actually work in a way independent of our choices. this defines the objective part of secular objective morality, that our interactions can be helpful or harmful in the areas of physically ,psychologically and emotionally and it is based on objective reality with no choice of ours how our bodies and brains operate in this way. you can never say " beating your wife may be harmful to you by in my family it is helpful based on the way our bodies and brain works through the laws of physics and laws of nature"

We can evolve past notions of divine command theory that whatever god commands is good and bad. in the storytelling god once told a man to kill his child ,and the man without question wen to do it.
The "supposed" moral of that story (claimed by believers) is to do what ever the hell god says fool or get capped for eternity yo.

we can transcend that kind of mindless operation in the world and simply teach form children in school up that " this is how the body and brain work for a human physically psychologically and emotionally" then teach that morality is the interaction in a society of large numbers of people that are not friends and family groups to treat people based on what is objectively helpful , and not to interact harmfully, then back it up with our criminal justice system ( which could use some touching up by the way:D)
It need not be over complicated there is a way people work in reality when it comes to what is helpful or harmful , next we must interact in a way that the large numbers of us can live with rights and treated fairly , we can even modify government and money systems or any other system to these objective morality to increase the quality of life for all of us.

 

I want to spend a little time reassuring theists and believers about a world with no god.

If it could be the case we evolved past the need of god and religion in the world I hold the position we teach comparative religion to everyone stating the facts of how Christianity for instance changed and transformed our world. the creation of science in some respects was helped in some ways by Christianity the modern world came to be with all our advancements came from the culture and society of Christianity and doesn't forget the achievements of other religion, now even though the specific beliefs about gods souls and afterlives contributed nothing helpful in any way whatsoever i am not one that wishes to wipe religion from history altogether that would be dangerous and dishonest, we give credit where it is due and tell the truth and yes even though some religions transformed our world in many ways , we eventually got to a new place which we evolve past their aspects of fiction and take what works let the rest go and tech the history of how it actually took place in reality.

 

DEBATE TIME! lets watch this particular debate and then discuss afterwards you in?

 

i corrected the above link please join us watching then discussing afterwards! :D

 

Comment about the debate regarding deepak Chopra and his success ,

some say he is a fraud ,some say his is dead wrong , some say he is so ambiguous as to make poetry clear and concise , but no matter what you say you cannot deny his ability to tap into what people wish was true in the modern age of "new age" "spirituality" he has been extremely influential in the " i dont know" or ignorance equals knowledge of supernatural community. This says a lot about the populous and the type of beliefs people are heading in which suggests people are getting much less religious than before dropping the dead weight so to speak and that is great because eventually those people and their family will be atheists ( if they research the topic and deepaks claims) overall i believe the data speaks for itself deepak although absurd and just plain wrong is actually working on the side of atheism unknowingly, it is just a skip hop and a jump away from atheism if a person goes from religion to vague notions of new age supernatural and superstition to educating themselves ending up "fake agnostic" pretending like they choose neither (atheism or theism as if that were an option haha) before ending up acknowledging to be atheist even if it is against what they wish to be true . i know this may be up for debate with some of you but thats great! demonstrate to me that i am wrong! we can get this party started!

 

deepak " consciousness is the fundamental , ontological primitive" in other words ( for those that need deciphering haha JK)

he is saying that consciousness is what ALL else stems from .




this proposition flies in the face of the evidence of the entire progress of human kind. that is there are Billions of pieces of evidence against this proposition that have connection to facts about reality. this means this particular proposition is identical to a fictional proposition or one that is false , for example " a human being exists with 473,458 arms exists in reality" a fictional proposition like this shares everything in common with deepaks proposition , that is to say ALL available evidence about the facts of reality are against it.

lets look at some.

1. consciousness. this is a word or symbol that represents the experience we have when many trillions of operation per second from our body and brain emerge to give our experience a felling of being "one thing" , this is identical to a movie or film, it is not the dvd or the player or the tv or the laptop or the tablet or the screen or the electricity running that it is not even the data itself the ones and zeros programmed on the disc, but when all these things come together the whole "emerges" as more than the sum of its parts. our consciousnesses is the same way , when you have a advanced brain with the centers we have and the bodes we have with refined senses trillions upon trillions of living cells operating together consciousness emerges and it feels like our mind is "one thing" bu that is just a feeling, a human being is not one thing anywhere in reality we are all of our parts and it has been demonstrated even in the case of Near Death Experiences when you damage the parts of the system you damage and change consciousness , until finally you damage the system so much consciousness is extinguished and vanishes forever . there is no such thing as human being as one object that is fiction, we feel like on thing in our consciousness but that is fiction our consciousness is virtual compared to reality.



in summary deepak thinks consciousness is real and reality is virtual


all the facts say consciousness is virtual reality is real

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017

So what is reality? I'll quote Wikipedia:

Human beings exist and so does their brain. The brain has a function. If the brain exists, its function exists as well. The function is producing thoughts. Therefore thoughts exist. Consciousness is a thought process. Since thoughts exist, therefore consciousness exists as well.

I won't try to convince you, as you shouldn't try to convince me. Just my 2 cents for other readers to see another argumentation.

EDIT: I'm neither theist nor atheist.

 

consciousness is demonstrably NOT the thought process you can prove this to yourself 100 percent right now tonight by meditating, lay down let ALLL your thoughts go way no thoughts and no feelings you feel pure awareness with no content inside of it now when you come out of it thoughts arise inside consciousness (layer 2) now once you have a thought an emotion rises (layer 3)

 

we have consciousness then on top of that we have thoughts on top on that we have feelings then emotions


im sure you have found yourself alive in at least one moment of time for which you had no thought feeling or emotion just a awareness and no content even if it did not last for long time.

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017

it is impossibe to not be a theist nor an atheist , here is why


theism is believing or worshiping in a god,
atheism is that you do not currently believe in or worship a supernatural god
(what is a third option?)


in simple form you have X and not X that is to say a circle and everything inside is X everything outside is not X.





"I won't try to convince you, as you shouldn't try to convince me. Just my 2 cents for other readers to see another argumentation."


cool , here is why trying to convince is Good thing it is called LEARNING , that is to say we hold beliefs and then someone comes along demonstrates they are wrong and we learn and grow to advance, it is what humans do .

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017

"
I won't try to convince you, as you shouldn't try to convince me. Just my 2 cents for other readers to see another argumentation.

EDIT: I'm neither theist nor atheist.
"

i would love to hear you best justification for these 2 positions if you would be okay with it i will not consider it trying to convince but instead ill think of it as explaining where your coming from.


it seems to me that we shouldn't try to convince each other is an argument against learning i never heard of that, do you take a position it is better not to learn than to learn?

regarding you not being an atheist or a theist are you say you do not have god you worship AND you do not take the position that you dont currently worship any god?

these are interesting positions i like to hear about.

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017

outcome, as long as we don't open the box is in superposition and by definition, it/he/she exists in both states at the same time or in this situation, alive and dead at the same time.

 

"
@n0xin: Schroedinger's cat thought experiment.
Although, the outcome scientifically was a half dead/half alive probability.
outcome, as long as we don't open the box is in superposition and by definition, it/he/she exists in both states at the same time or in this situation, alive and dead at the same time.
"


interesting aspect of the topic i must say, however a cat is large object therefore not subject to entanglement or weird quantum effects like particles have. you might say "but wait!..." i know its the radiation decay at the quantum level that determines the outcome, however it has been demonstrated the wave function will collapse in that situation by the cat.

the thought experiment does not account for what it would take in reality to do the real experiment and when you account for that the wave function is collapsed preventing paradox.

 

quantum mechanics weirdness


one might say well look at the double slit experiment particles a or waves depends on consciousness! right? ... nope the DETECTOR is made of atoms to make a measurement has to interfere with the experiment enough to collapse the waveform , we know this because we can now try to measure so gentle as not not interfere it cannot measure anything at alland has no effect and still gets waves

 

This thread is mildly entertaining but it can not really go too much further. A discussion like this is interesting when you have equally matched brains and argumentation, the problem is the internet is place where pretty much anyone has a voice, and people come into things like this without the training to try to limit their confirmation bias into their arguments.

The only statistically significant observation that I can take out of this tread is that loud and obnoxious religious extremism just creates more loud and obnoxious extremism somewhere else. Atheism in itself is a form of religion (it requires faith and conviction especially since humanity is thought to be a disential species where slight schizophrenia is the normal state of humans.)

All the pressure created from the late 70s by the resurgence of American Evangelism has only created other groups even further of the edges of the spectrum of hardcore fundamentalism from every group including atheists and beardie weirdies of every creed.

Que serra, serra.

 

"
This thread is mildly entertaining but it can not really go too much further. A discussion like this is interesting when you have equally matched brains and argumentation, the problem is the internet is place where pretty much anyone has a voice, and people come into things like this without the training to try to limit their confirmation bias into their arguments.

The only statistically significant observation that I can take out of this tread is that loud and obnoxious religious extremism just creates more loud and obnoxious extremism somewhere else. Atheism in itself is a form of religion (it requires faith and conviction especially since humanity is thought to be a disential species where slight schizophrenia is the normal state of humans.)

All the pressure created from the late 70s by the resurgence of American Evangelism has only created other groups even further of the edges of the spectrum of hardcore fundamentalism from every group including atheists and beardie weirdies of every creed.

Que serra, serra.

"




"This thread is mildly entertaining but it can not really go too much further."



cue dracula's laugh bwhaw bhaw bhaw bhaw ha ha bhaw





so you are making statement about reality for the future of this thread and its possibilities? what you basing that on?








"A discussion like this is interesting when you have equally matched brains and argumentation,"

sure , we all have preferences i guess for what conditions we want to take place in reality










"the problem is the internet is place where pretty much anyone has a voice, and people come into things like this without the training to try to limit their confirmation bias into their arguments."


i take it you are the one this proposition does not apply to and everyone is is who it applies to? can you demonstrate it?







"The only statistically significant observation that I can take out of this tread is that loud and obnoxious religious extremism just creates more loud and obnoxious extremism somewhere else"

I dont know what information you are trying to communicate, if anyone does please clarify for us of which without the "training" who shouldn't be allowed to have a voice and try to limit their confirmation bias into their arguments ALL because we want to attempt to ,at least to differentiate reality from fiction regarding our thoughts , ideas, propositions and concepts.











"Atheism in itself is a form of religion"


yeah, i guess not having a religion and not believing in anything that resembles a religion is now a religion right ? wow ,who fell off the turnip truck? i guess it was me

i should have known! what ever i do is a religion, if i am an atheist it is a religion
if i eat a ham f*cking sandwich it is a religion,


من گنگ انسان هستم





"All the pressure created from the late 70s by the resurgence of American Evangelism has only created other groups even further of the edges of the spectrum of hardcore fundamentalism from every group including atheists and beardie weirdies of every creed."

wow clap clap what a genius the answer was there this whole time right in front of our big dumb noses everyone bow down quick before he gets angry!







"(it requires faith and conviction especially since humanity is thought to be a disential species where slight schizophrenia is the normal state of humans.)"







see the kind of gibberish the human mind is capable of when the human has no interest to make a differentiation between fiction and not fiction regarding a thought they have? it must be that it looks insanely willfully ignorant to me because im soooo dumb the poor peasant in me


sees it that way, BUT if i only was a special human with actual value, that had the official cracker jack box decoder ring and ink stamp of approval , then i would be approved to have a voice!Deh deh dh dh dheeeeh Suddenly my IQ would sky rocket to the point where these propositions would demonstrate themselves to be "absolutely certain" , i would be super human intelligence, where like this dashing young fellow have ZERO need at any time to evaluate my thoughts, because my brain would be incapable of fiction. i would be a reality machine to the point i couldn't even enjoy a good movie because my brain would keep yelling out " its just a fake script with actors goddamn it! its only lighting rigs and actors and the directors!"

 

Last edited: Apr 18, 2017