Thanks for the effort however maybe you misunderstood the question because you are still answering how inner or outer reality works instead of answering how come that it exists at all in the first place. For the sake of the argument let's simplify and imagine that the inner (subjective) or outer (objective) reality is just a triangle which later throughout its existence may morph into hexagon or innumerable other shapes. So when you start explaining how this triangle due to the laws of nature will turn into the cluster of hexagons here and strings of octagons there is irrelevant for my question.

For what I care (with this question) everything might remain just a triangle forever and my question will not be addressed unless we start to discuss how come that this "Triangle (or fill in whatever word you prefer such as: reality, universe, god, evolution, matter, energy, vibration, life etc.)" exists in the first place.
There has to be something that exists before it can be put in motion and transmutation. But even if it was never put into the motion and evolution there it would by lying dormant. So again; the question is:
"How come there is existence itself (before you attach it to whatever word or process or law of your choice)?"

 

they still atheist

 

One does not "convert" to Atheism as there is no belief system to Convert to, one can only abandon a previously held belief.

 

Yes but with the additional aspect of a strongly held social "belief", I think it's an important distinction.

 

sure,


"
For the sake of the argument let's simplify and imagine that the inner (subjective) or outer (objective) reality is just a triangle which later throughout its existence may morph into hexagon or innumerable other shapes. So when you start explaining how this triangle due to the laws of nature will turn into the cluster of hexagons here and strings of octagons there is irrelevant for my question."


The analogy does not hold up. there are no triangles morphing into hexagons in reality.
the answer i gave is exactly why there is anything , maybe if you clarify i will get what you are asking about.



"For what I care (with this question) everything might remain just a triangle forever and my question will not be addressed unless we start to discuss how come that this "Triangle (or fill in whatever word you prefer such as: reality, universe, god, evolution, matter, energy, vibration, life etc.)" exists in the first place."

I did do that.




"There has to be something that exists before it can be put in motion and transmutation."


what do you mean by this? can you clarify?

unified filed theory at the planck scale does not work this way, quantum mechanics does not works this way, but when you get to the emergent classical level it DOES work this way.



"But even if it was never put into the motion and evolution there it would by lying dormant."

it is not the way reality works at the unified planck level , or the next level up that emerges the quantum level, but when you get to the next emergent level up to classical level , it DOES work that way.


"
But even if it was never put into the motion and evolution there it would by lying dormant. So again; the question is:
"How come there is existence itself (before you attach it to whatever word or process or law of your choice)?"





there is no such THING as existence.
that is just a word we use to describe, us being able to recognize a complex system and its interactions what is there and how it works

when we start at the unified level there are no laws of physics yet , but that gives rise to the emergent quantum level through super symmetry.
next at the quantum level again things work a specific way and it is not related to cause and effect or what our intuitions are, but from the quantum level , the classical level emerges where we ARE used to, cause and effect all he things you are wondering.


it is like a "car" does not exist.
that is a word to describe the sum total of its specific parts we label as a shortcut.


to make a comparison of something vs that thing not being there is a symbolic representation WE have. its our imagination saying " what would be IF that thing was not"


reality as it turns out works differently than our mind usually intuites


existence is a word we use to describe our ability to imagine something that IS there, not being there.


to ask "why is there existence" is the same as asking " why is a rock a rock?"
the answer is " because it is, what it is and it is NOT what it is NOT"



In other words, because the question is based on to the way language and concepts of human beings work, the answer is based on the way language and concepts for human beings work.

 

Last edited: Apr 23, 2017

Death is real.
Taxes are real.
...
Looking for the G-spot is an illusion.

 

Thanks.
I need a X-Ray implant only.

 

One good thing about being 37, and an avid internet user for 25 years, means you are automatically a sex expert. pshahaha

(it happens on accident just by the popups!lol haha)

 

Last edited: Apr 23, 2017

@ned944 burn this f-ing troll infested thread down.

 

huh?

YOU ARE the troll infesting this thread. how IRONIC

why are you angry about your own choices and actions? hahah lol

 

Last edited: Apr 23, 2017

funny threat , so much noise about nothing

 

When you put so much effort throughout all those 28 pages I imagine you aren't talking talking out of plank level basement. If yes we shall switch this thread to that level altogether immediately and make it disappear for all who remain in the reality of classic mechanics.
(this is not a serious statement so no need to respond)

Sure we've already established that words are generalizations, pieces that constitutes mind map about the otherwise unknown world.
We don't need to go over it again.

So your answer to my question is rather simple;
to ask "why is there existence" is the same as asking " why is a rock a rock?"
the answer is " because it is, what it is and it is NOT what it is NOT"

It somewhat ignores the subjective acknowledgment that makes the rock what it is.
For example the pixels on your video monitor (which is also made partially from the rock) that switch on and off to form the words you are reading just now make sense only to you as conscious subject who is tuned to reading it (by understanding a bit of English language). Otherwise they do not contain meaning and scientifically you can't prove that there is objective meaning (outside of the person who is reading it).

Why do you think the rest of the world (reality) is so much different.
When you, through your own power of mind, decide that there is (exists) a reality and illusion (both within your own awareness) you are making them happen for you and due to the laws of mind and nature you find proof of them, and learn about their details and how pieces of reality or pieces of illusion or pieces of both connect. There lies the danger of finding oneself enslaved by mapping process while instead one could created something new and exciting on the land he was trying to map.
Illusion (imagination) is a special case of reality which allows you to imagine things in your mind that do not exist in "reality" but may come to exist (such as did the pyramids, airplanes, computers, music and arts etc.).
The same works for theist and atheist. One is finding the proof of God within himself and spreads the love, the other is denying it (the proof) and spreads the truth.
But, coming back to my question, they both imagine existence of reality upon which they are free to disagree. The fact that there is a reality (which includes a special case of reality called imagination) or that there is illusion (which includes a special case of illusion called reality) is by far so much more important than whatever interpretation about it we may come to.
For all we know there may be a special case, a special law, that will trigger, for example but not limited to: just when you read this and existence of everything dissolves in one moment and there with it go all your theories about the reality and facts.
(sometimes a simple heart attack will do)

If we weren't ignorant about the importance of existence per sē, we as individuals, as societies and humanity in general wouldn't waste so much time on creating division. Instead we'd quickly recognize relative irrelevance of "our version of the map" and would come back to celebrate life. You (we) are not alone.

 

Lloyd Pye - Everything You Know Is Wrong.

Lloyd Pye (1946-2013) was a researcher, author, and lecturer best known for his unique insights on Intervention Theory, the theory that aliens played a part in the development of human life on Earth, and his work with an unusual 900 year old skull known as the Starchild Skull.

Lloyd Pye sadly passed away on December 9th, 2013, but he left behind him a legacy of intriguing work, which you can explore on this website.

His main areas of expertise were hominoids (pre-humans and their modern-day counterparts such as bigfoot, sasquatch, and yeti), megaliths (pyramids etc.), the origins of life on Earth, human origins, alien intervention, and the Starchild Skull.

http://www.lloydpye.com/

There is a lot of science you guys have not been introduced to if you think there is no creator.

An awful lot and it is far more advanced science than you obviously know about or are able to deal with.

 

I enjoy reading into this type of things very interesting thank you for your contribution with that

 

an atheist is a person who believes God does not like him/her

 

"It somewhat ignores the subjective acknowledgment that makes the rock what it is."

What I was trying to say is we cannot look at say a atom and ask, "why is this atom NOT an ATOM but instead another type of thing I imagine or NO thing at all."

When we do this, we are shifting WHAT it is we are thinking about- from reality to imagination. That is to say we are imagining the thing to be something it is not,and step teo then asking WHY is it actually NOT our imagination.
My proposition answers why reality is not our imagination, and like you mention, there are times when our imagination can become reality if we create the concept based on " the way things work"(reality for short)


example. In my mind, I picture a song that does not yet exist. it is fiction. For it to BE possible to exist, I have to create it with a methodology based on " the way music actually works" in other words the mathematics of multiples and divisions of complex sound waves which contain harmonics. And to do that I have to use the tools the way they actually work whether instruments computers recording desks tape machine digital recorders all the cables the power supplies that go with the equipment the electronics that make the devices up.










"For example the pixels on your video monitor (which is also made partially from the rock) that switch on and off to form the words you are reading just now make sense only to you as conscious subject who is tuned to reading it (by understanding a bit of English language). Otherwise they do not contain meaning and scientifically you can't prove that there is objective meaning (outside of the person who is reading it)."


the reason is to "make sense" means intelligible, or us understanding how things actually work
Meaning is a word that describes us understanding something as it actually works.
I know you said what you did about words and definitions but you are treating " intelligible" and "meaning" here
As IF they are properties or things in reality, but really they are a words, which is a shortcut to a description.
to "make sense" is ACTUALLY the combination of words that adds up to " a human being with a mind understanding how things actually work" and the single word " meaning" you say " they do not contain meaning"
you are right because something cannot contain "meaning" , meaning is a shortcut to say " when human beings brain comprehends how things really work"








"
Why do you think the rest of the world (reality) is so much different.
When you, through your own power of mind, decide that there is (exists) a reality and illusion (both within your own awareness) you are making them happen for you and due to the laws of mind and nature you find proof of them, and learn about their details and how pieces of reality or pieces of illusion or pieces of both connect. There lies the danger of finding oneself enslaved by mapping process while instead one could created something new and exciting on the land he was trying to map."





different than or to what?




there are two areas we are talking about in my proposition

Area 1.

A> Reality ( the way things actually are and what is really there outside of our minds)
B> Fiction ( thinking using symbols in a way that is not the way things actually are or how they work)

Area 2.

how a human mind can accuracy make the distinction between Reality ( the way things actually are and what is really there outside of our minds) and Fiction ( thinking using symbols in a way that is not the way things actually are or how they work) through the process of the mind.


"
There lies the danger of finding oneself enslaved by mapping process while instead one could created something new and exciting on the land he was trying to map.""



My proposition is not a philosophical structure, Idea one should value or hold , choice we should make,

My proposition is me using words, or symbols to describe the actual position every human being finds themselves in LITERALLY
That" the way things actually work" when it comes to the actual topic of human beings mind trying to connect thoughts and ideas to" the way things actually work" This is the position we find ourselves in because of how our bodies and how our brains work.

Exactly like how we cannot change the value of gravity, or that a description of gravity is not a value to hold or a idea to believe in, but a description of the way things actually work that we have no choice but to follow.





"There lies the danger of finding oneself enslaved by mapping process while instead one could created something new and exciting on the land he was trying to map."

we ARE enslaved to "mapping" process, just as we ARE a slave to gravity and electromagnetism and the weak force.






"while instead one could created something new and exciting on the land he was trying to map.""

That is the thing, to create something new is to use to things the way they actually work, If i wanted to create a computer , BUT in my thoughts i did NOT differentiate between the fiction and not fiction of how electromagnetism works, I would be attempting to build a device that cannot possibly succeed, it will fail. because success is determined by having our concepts of thing match the actual thing itself ( as best as possible anyway) it cannot be flat wrong. your concept of electromagnetism IF opposite of the way it actually works, will end up building something that will catch fire and burn up every time.





"Illusion (imagination) is a special case of reality which allows you to imagine things in your mind that do not exist in "reality" but may come to exist (such as did the pyramids, airplanes, computers, music and arts etc.). "

sometimes fiction or illusion can be brought into reality depending on the situation what it is in question BUT it is determined whether it is tactfully possible to do it is based on " the way things actually work" . this is what i am calling reality "" the way things actually work""






"The same works for theist and atheist. One is finding the proof of God within himself and spreads the love, the other is denying it (the proof) and spreads the truth."





a Theist is reading or being told storytelling through words and language that they accept. they might give a description of those literal events as " finding the proof of god within self" but, WHAT makes their description an accurate account of what took place?

( I am not saying that it isn't or couldn't be accurate I'm only saying that it is objectively possible for their interpretation to be wrong or to be right, it cannot be neither and it cannot be both it matches what actually took place in reality or it is not accurate )


an atheist, lets even say is having the same event take place , they are admitting that when they evaluate the sentence "finding the proof of God within himself and spreads the love" the answer is they do not know if that is the accurate description of what literally took place in reality. ( before the storytelling exists what people believed was different than religion gods souls afterlives)those came once the storytelling cam in human history


the atheist looks at the same storytelling through words and language they admit they cannot accept , that the storytelling matches accurately to reality.








"But, coming back to my question, they both imagine existence of reality upon which they are free to disagree."

there is reality, then there is the human mind trying to figure out if what they think IS reality matches actual reality.








"The fact that there is a reality (which includes a special case of reality called imagination) or that there is illusion (which includes a special case of illusion called reality) is by far so much more important than whatever interpretation about it we may come to."






this is my proposition , because there actually IS a such thing as FICTION , AND because there actually IS a such thing as NOT FICTION, AND the two are opposite ends and yield opposite results from each other, we find ourselves being forced to figure out which one is which in the context of our thoughts and propositions sentences we say or write concepts we have ideas we have.


Now we have to make another distinction between the type of fiction that is completely false that nothing can come from, or say the kind of fiction I imagine building a new device THROUGH (the way things actually work) where in this case the only thing that IS fiction is the sentence "this device exists" to follow through with making it apart of reality , relies entirely on the way things actually work in reality




"
For all we know there may be a special case, a special law, that will trigger, for example but not limited to: just when you read this and existence of everything dissolves in one moment and there with it go all your theories about the reality and facts.
(sometimes a simple heart attack will do)"


it does not change anything the proposition is true even then it is always true. there is an actual way your organs work, and because you have actual damage to specific cells and organs the direct result is a heart attack or two words that describe a health problem.







"If we weren't ignorant about the importance of existence per sē, we as individuals, as societies and humanity in general wouldn't waste so much time on creating division. Instead we'd quickly recognize relative irrelevance of "our version of the map" and would come back to celebrate life. You (we) are not alone.[/QUOTE]"


In reality there is no division , there is no "our version of the map" what that actually is in reality , is a human being being correct or incorrect about what they think is real or true. there is no equal rights type value here that says fiction has equal rights to reality.

it is NOT that many people have different "our version of the map"s and they are are equal .
what it ACTUALLY is , a situation for which human beings actually exist , next they each have a thought process, next that thought process has to evaluate each thought to see the truth value of it. next Those instances for which the human beings thought process actually created a proposition that does not match the way things actually work, are wrong.Those instances for which the human beings thought process actually created a proposition that does match the way things actually work, are correct.


Now how does this tie into the idea of "divisions" , people should not be divided , and are not divide because they use works like theist and atheist, that is a description of what is taking place inside of their mind.Just because all humans are unique and there are differences does not mean they are divided in the sense of human value or worth ( they shouldn't ever be)

 

an atheist is a person that sees GOD identical with superman in reality itself, that is to say both are storytellings, both have words for them people can talk about the ideas of them, both have writings about them. neither have anything else for them than that. ALL fiction has those qualities ALL real things have more qualities than that.


nobody can point to anything real about superman
nobody can point to anything real about god

both are equal fiction.

 

Last edited: Apr 23, 2017

what information is contained within your comment?


oh, nothing

you made a comment about nothing.
whereas this thread is about something.

you do the thing you accuse of, very bright ;D

 

You better do, because when you look at atom you are only looking to what atom is to you. If you start thinking how an atom is not what you learned it is you'll create a new way of looking at it.
You'll keep imagining that there is an atom which you will continue to find about until you find out it is alive and it might change according to your actions which are results of your will.
And btw you'll never know what atom is per se, that is unless your mind becomes one with it.