"Too many flaws in what your stating sir. you read the bible many times and don't know a prophecy is ?"


give me an individual EXAMPLE of a prophecy.





"you attribute design to the laws of nature, really? ok lets go with that for fun"

It is a fact about reality that the laws of nature designed us.



"who designed nature ?"

people came FROM the laws of nature



who
ho͞o/
pronoun
pronoun: who

1. 1.
   what or which person or people.
   "who is that woman?"
2. 2.
   used to introduce a clause giving further information about a person or people previously mentioned.
   "Joan Fontaine plays the mouse who married the playboy"

"A thing can't design itself"

I did not say that it could.

design is a word a description

de·sign
dəˈzīn/
noun
noun: design; plural noun: designs

1. 1.
   a plan or drawing produced to show the look and function or workings of a building, garment, or other object before it is built or made.
   "he has just unveiled his design for the new museum"
   synonyms: plan, blueprint, drawing, sketch, outline, map, plot, diagram, draft, representation, scheme, model
   "a design for the offices"
   • the art or action of conceiving of and producing a plan or drawing.
     "good design can help the reader understand complicated information"
   • an arrangement of lines or shapes created to form a pattern or decoration.
     "pottery with a lovely blue and white design"
     synonyms: pattern, motif, device; More
     style, composition, makeup, layout, construction, shape, form
     "tableware with a gold design"
2. 2.
   purpose, planning, or intention that exists or is thought to exist behind an action, fact, or material object.
   "the appearance of design in the universe"
   synonyms: intention, aim, purpose, plan, intent, objective, object, goal, end, target; More
   hope, desire, wish, dream, aspiration, ambition
   "his design of reaching the top"

verb
verb: design; 3rd person present: designs; past tense: designed; past participle: designed; gerund or present participle: designing
1.
decide upon the look and functioning of (a building, garment, or other object), typically by making a detailed drawing of it.
"a number of architectural students were designing a factory"
synonyms: plan, outline, map out, draft, draw More




"that would break the law of motioned time, because it would need momentum to start moving and time to develop and form."

things dont work the way you worded this

reality does not work based on the way we think, we THINK based on the way reality WORKS.






"Nature would then have to predetermine what the purpose will be for each thing it created.I"

you are just using words as symbols right now reality does not conform to ours words or symbols
our words conform the way reality works.
we have to learn about how reality works we dont " just know"
reality works the way it actually does even when it dont make sense to us.






"It would have to know how far to put the sun from earth, as well as the laws of gravity. It would have to know the details of atoms,molecules , photons ,neutrons and plasma.."

you have it in reverse , it is laws of nature that made those things those words we use to describe those things.







"Now if you tell me that you truly believe that something without a mind can create a mind, then your delusional at this point..."

something without a mind is the ONLY thing we know of that DID create a mind. we dont know of any minds that created other minds its too complicated for our minds to make a mind.






".and I bow out gracefully from this discussion. If nature created us , why did it stop and where did it get its information from."

it didnt stop , what do you mean stop? what information? information is a word we use to describe what WE understand. before humans trillions of years before humans there was no word "information"






"You cannot ask a thing, to tell you its purpose,"

that is the ONLY way to find out if it has a purpose or not.







"that my friend comes from the mind of the creator of the thing."

i dont know what this arrangement of words means





"If the maker a turntable did not explain what is or does the TT can't tell you its purpose."

yes it can



"So how did nature explain which fruit we can or cannot eat?"

we have a digestion system that works a specific way, when our ancestors where fish it worked a bit different, when our ancestors were worms it worked different.





"The 1st person that ate fruit could not do that by trial and error, less he die trying, which would effect reproduction of the human race"


the types of plants and food were different millions of years ago . they were not the food we have now and the animals were not the ones we have now.






"He had to have information of what was good for him and what was not..now where did he get hat info from?"

living creatures eat it is what they do. how does a earthworm know what to eat god told him? food is chemistry our bodies are chemistry when a mind is less developed the have natural chemical response to what to eat






"Also riddle me this , when did nature do this? can you give concrete evidence since you seem so sure about your assumption?"

if you are asking about the very first human or homo sapien was 200,000 years ago in africa , it ate the food and fruit of its ancestors and parents.

 

"Also riddle me this , when did nature do this? can you give concrete evidence since you seem so sure about your assumption?"

if you are asking about the very first human or homo sapien was 200,000 years ago in africa , it ate the food and fruit of its ancestors and parents.






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptile

https://www.google.com/#q=amphibian





its enough to just get started with concrete evidence

 

THESE ARE EDUCATION FILMS FULL FILMS ON HUMAN EVOLUTION

 

Here is thousands of books on human evolution

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=human+evolution

 

Talmi, would you be ok with the challenge if it was formulated like this: "Examine how you in your own life differentiate between real and imaginary characters and then examine how you arrive to the conclusion that the God you believe in exist and is not imaginary."

I think the essence is quite the same.

 

Yes it's nicely formulated.
Personaly I would be very interested in the why too. I'm not myself a believer, but I'm not actually sure people believe because of the harshness of life, grieving, fear of death and need for an after life etc. I'm guessing for many it's also a positive act.
And you too if you want to convert people to atheism it might not be useless to understand why they believe rather then the pertinence or credibility of who they believe in.

 

the absence of matter is

Science has said a lot about what the vacuum is and what it does in terms of creating forces and having an effect on time and space. The amplituhedron is an interesting take on a grand theory of everything that some say is the solution to what our universe is.

I say a vacuum is impossible because frequency fills space as it creates it and so this is a situation were space does not exist unless a type of energy or matter exists and the entire universe is possibly a hologram anyway its all a construct with a creator of mental capabilities far greater than ours. We know we exist to fill it so something happened that led to the universe existing with conscious beings in it that can perceive it.

I say we are being abused and treated like farm animals on a planet that is out of the way enough for galactic corporations to conduct genetic experiments and get away with it. They came up with us as a way to create a new model for the people who can shift from one body to another and as we work to evolve we develop into newer forms and develop newer capabilities and this helps the engineers to think of new features to sell to their clients. Either that or they like to eat us and are just waiting for us to evolve into a more tasty creation. LOL

Actually the question on if we are alone in the universe has been answered already and there is lots of proof that they are visiting this planet and have an interest in helping us evolve to the point were we can petition to join the galactic federation or whatever they call it.

The genetic splicing evidence present in the human genome is evidence that they have been messing with us but they seem to forget or maybe they are not aware of the fact that every so often the galaxy burps out an energy field that resets our DNA and redesigns existing life into new creatures and the fossil record seems to prove this by how there exists repeatable periodicity and cycles with species appearing and disappearing in a series of repeating patterns.

 

Ok, so the challenge thing is cleared up. I think that some people mix up the fact that we can't directly access the data of reality with the rediculous notion that we can't know anything about reality. I hope that is not your view?

I do want believers to wake up, but I am not so sure I want to be taking on that personally really, it is just to exhausting. Mostly I am just interested how the actually can believe what they do in lack of evidence. The more i listen to believers though, I wonder if there is much more to find out than that they have chemicals in their brains that make them prefer wishful thinking over logic. If it is not indoctrination and lack of information of course. "Positive act", not quite sure what you really mean by that?

 

I just mean a belief that would come from a place different than despair in front of cold hard reality, the certainty that it all ends, etc.
I don't know for the chemical thing, I'm sure among some people who believes there are some who are unbalanced and hear voices but I don't think more among them than among the atheist side.
That's kind of why the why seems rather important. Probably different reasons too. It's funny because in France the atheist are a majority (60% of the population don't believe), so I guess we feel less the need to persuade people. The state took the monopol of education at the beginning of the XXth century, took over schools, kicked god out of teaching books, etc...Education did the rest, but it's a slow process. The generation of my grand parent (so people born around 1920s-30) were massively more prone to believe in god, go to church etc, the change came with their children.

 

shheeeessh i thought this site was all about audio and audio art..??? not bullshit belief systems

 

...and communist/socialist ideology that views a God as it's main competitor for the control of the masses.
So nowadays their children might be less controlled by the church but equally or even more controlled by the state.
What is funny is how France (state) works hard on replacing it's non believer population with very radical believers which will eventually democratically vote for a better system based on sharia law.

 

@MMJ2017 (and others)
Since you change the subject to "What is real and not" I'd like to move discussion (for a moment) to the question: "How come that anything is?"
Sure, something exists and through the receptors mind forms the map of that which it think exists, creates mini maps (words) to construct more complex maps and however we look at it maps will sometimes bring us to expected results (air conditioners in buildings) and sometimes not (unhappy society). Your thread is now 27 pages long and it doesn't seam that the map you try to construct here will bring you closer to "reality". I am sure you will not agree ;-)

Some of us here would comment that we live in a simulation, or that this world is God's creation, or as you'd probably say that there is no higher intelligence behind creation but there is reality to be found... the common thing to all of those is that they agree that something exist, illusion or reality but it is "here, there and everywhere" (McCartney).

So let's skip intermediate phases of evolution and practical application of science for a moment and see what we can map about THE question.
Based on all your life experience what is your idea about "How come that anything exists at all?"

 

That is what humans are about my friend.

 

Sure, I just want to say I didn't change the title . I don't know how did. When I began This thread I wanted to keep Narrowed down.
To " do you believe in gods souls or afterlives, or not", form the context of the proposition. That is "How a human being can know reality"
I do understand why It was expanded, Plus I never thought The thread would be this successful, ( As far as I knew it would be 3 people talking for couple hours etc.)



"Sure, something exists and through the receptors mind forms the map of that which it think exists, creates mini maps (words) to construct more complex maps and however we look at it maps will sometimes bring us to expected results (air conditioners in buildings) and sometimes not (unhappy society). Your thread is now 27 pages long and it doesn't seam that the map you try to construct here will bring you closer to "reality". I am sure you will not agree ;-)"


Well, If a human being has an extra tool to distinguish reality from fiction in their thoughts that means more of the time their thoughts add up to what is actually their , and the more that happens is exactly " a map you try to construct that brings you closer to reality"







Now Back to your topic sir.
Mr.Floyd. You had Stated
"I'd like to move discussion (for a moment) to the question: "How come that anything is?""

This is something I have thought about a lot and from different perspectives.
for example are you asking from the perspective of reality? or from our or even your own inner experience perspective?
From the perspective of reality, Lets say it was a reality that contained no things.
we wouldn't exists and couldn't ask the question at all.
this partially answers the question , which is to say the reason why " how come anything this"
The laws of nature emerged from the unified super symmetry scale of space-time , when zoomed into the smallest tiniest planck scale.
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Unified_Theory"

I can picture a NOT very satisfied facial expression! haha but give me a chance

what I am saying is there is a way which nature works that created all things , and although somethings like the structure of the galaxies and where empty space is or local galaxy clusters in the universe is similar to a snow flake forming, that is very unique and detailed pattern that is based on the way the universe began to cool after the initial inflation. the values of certain laws of nature
The universe is very orderly at the classical level.
. that is " how come anything is" from the perspective of reality.



We can also ask it from the perspective of inner our experience.
" how come anything is" from our viewpoint?
Which is asking why are we aware of that for which we are? And why can we distinguish between subject and object? inside vs outside, self vs environment.why is it something to be like us?
The reason for this a byproduct of evolution and specifically human evolution.
Those beings way early on that was good at making a distinction between self and object survived a bit better.( first multi- cellular)

many people do not account for cultural evolution or how human beings have evolved with our societal emergent structures for which are new in the large scope but have dramatically advanced us even though of physical structure of the body and brain have remained the same. Recently we have learned a lot about the human brains plasticity , that the neural "internet" of our brain can be dramatically transformed by ourselves, the way we live our life what we do we shape our structure and its connections. This is the impact the emergent societal aspect when first developed , on human beings. I am sure we had a sense of subject/ object say 5 million years ago, but with the advent of language , communication, and culture, It came us an ability to think to fathom in a way no animal ever came close.
This made our experience VIVID , we formed the first versions of art, and even of religion with ancestor worship. We began to make tools and modify our environment cook food build houses eventually farming. and put us on the path to where we find ourselves today.

Now you can ask from the perspective of " why is their any life?"
the reason is if there was no life their wouldn't be a sense of the question.
If we look at everything we know about life it is not very different from non life that is to say, we are made of the same things as everything else due to the emergence of laws from unified theory than the next level up the emergence of quantum mechanics then the emergence of classical level then the emergence of chemistry then the emergence of biology then the emergence of human mind. Today we have very clear picture of the how and whys through demonstrable evidence even though some tiny details are unanswered. Life is what the laws of nature create when dealing with complex systems. as opposed of the simple systems of rocks.
The reason that complex life was able to form has a lot to do with our location in the galaxy our specific solar system the planet and which materials were gathered by gravity in the formation of our solar system there had been several supernovas which gave us the complex elements needed. the conditions were right in the formation of earth and the type of moon that formed when a planet crashed into earth but its core combined with the earths core giving a much larger magnetic field and then the moon pulling like it does to create tides and tectonic plates

when we look at the most primordial primitive cells that would have been the very beginning of life ,they not like how we see DNA and RNA today.
they had a simple but soft outer wall separating form outside and just very basic self replication. all this through the laws of chemistry. as time went on that is billions of physical years to replicate enough changes every generation occurred to get more complex ( the cells that survived passed on their advancements. ) until we arrive at multi0cellular organisms.

 

Last edited: Apr 23, 2017

You forgot one very important other option: Antitheist.