One neglected aspect is also how well your hearing is developed.If you can differentiate between Valhalla and Altiverb than you certainly will benefit greatly if you acquire it.
People saying Altiverb and Valhalla are in the same league just dont have a well developed hearing.
Yes, its a beast of a reverb.

 

Im still young in my musical/sound journey, started 5 years ago, but I noticed my earing already got two times better, esp during my sound eng grade and the 5000 hours (I think more, actually!) I already spent on DAWs haha, so I just got Altiverb, I'm gonna try it right now and see If I ear legit difference.

First idea I have is not replacing any of my lovely Valhalla on tracks, but try it as a room reverb for the whole track, then I'll compare!

 

Cool.
Also, If i may suggest use it as a send fx on selected busses, to not drown the sound in reverb.Or use it on a drum kit, synth or a piano, guitar, etc..drum kits are a great way to test.Also play with the wet amount and eq the reverb within the interface,also you dont want to use 100%, for realism even 20% might be enough.

 

Convolution reverbs should just die so we can innovate on algos more. Why my extreme view? Convolution reverbs always sound the same. Send the same audio through them, and you get the same output everytime. Because they are like sampling spaces. This is not how the real world works, so clearly they are not as real as people think. It is the same reason physical modelling is much superior to samples if done well, and will be in the future. But saying convolution sounds real is like saying samples are the same as the real instrument. Yeah, no.

The only thing with the potential to sound as real as the real thing is an extremely detailed physically modelled synth (in the future maybe), which is the analogy to algo reverbs.

You're wrong and make no sense at all. Your 2 bit example also makes no sense. All audio samples are normalized to -1...1 in fixed point. That is, it's mapped to -1...1 within the available bits. 16-bit samples are -32768...32767 but represent the same -1...1 audio as 8-bit samples which are -256...255. If you convert directly from 8-bit to 16-bit and use -256...255 boy, you're a horrible programmer sorry. You need to remap them (and thus multiply everything by 256 so you end up with -65536...65535).

Furthermore, even if we ignore that, 32 bit/64 bit are floating point formats. You obviously have no idea how floating point works. There is no such thing as a ceiling in floating point. Imagine writing numbers in scientific notation, but in binary. Yes, that's how floating point works. It actually stores a 7-bit exponent (for 32-bit).

(well actually there is a ceiling but it is MONSTROUSLY huge because of the exponent, you will never reach it in audio, ever, unless you are doing it on purpose, it's so huge because it has to deal with scientific huge numbers in general)


However, you are indeed right that higher bit depth helps in processing. Here's why: round off errors.

Imagine adding two signals in fixed point, which also implies a division by 2 (due to normalization, it's how fixed point math works, read more on it), you get a fractional value. Say you get 65.5. Truncate it to 65. Truncation itself isn't bad here, as nobody can hear the 0.5 anyway and it's minuscule.

However, you process it some more, so repeat it again. Truncate again to 65. Oops, you lost 1 this time (0.5 twice). This 1 CAN be stored within your destination bit depth (it can be 66 instead of 65), thus you just lowered your possible output quality by working with a low bit depth.

Floating point is more complicated, but fractions can be more than just 0.5, they can be infinitely precise (some fractions can't even be represented properly, they need infinite digits). One or two truncations may not matter, but they can add up if you do alot of processing.

So I also recommend you work with 64-bit for intense processing, "because why not".

 

Roger, senpai! I'll just do that!

 

Sometimes I feel as if I'm the only one that actually tries to understand. I repeat for the third time: I simplified everything to the very barebones to point to the issue.I was not trying to teach programming. I am very well aware of how floating point works. Why do you think I was talking about curves? And of course there is a ceiling. Boy, you don't know much about number formats! The range of a 32-bit (aka single precision) float is 1.17549*10^-38 to 3.40282*10^38. And only exact to at most 6 digits. There are lots of numbers that you can't represent with a 32-bit float, you might want to read about it on the web. That's why you have to use 64-bit floats (aka double precision) floats to get the correct number from any calculation of two single precisions. Hell, in C/C++ the majority of developers already even work with quadruple precision floats. But since you know better than me how to program, you will probably explain, why we all are wrong and you are right?

However, I said what was important about the quality of a convolution reverb. You can accept it or reject it. I don't think I can make it any more clear without contantly repeating the same facts over and over again.

(Btw. You didn't even understand the difference between a signal stream and a sample file. May want to learn about that as well?)

 

If that is the simplified version I'm glad I decided to be a musician instead of a programmer, lol

 

While i don't normally respond to this type of nonsense, I have to on this one so the younger musicians and Engineers don't get too confused from a spew of bad misinformation and biased opinions.

First, you may want to use more convolution reverbs before you continue to make ignorant statements like these. Convolution technology has advanced faster and further than any other technology in the past decade, today you have the standard static convolution from Altaverb/Waves, to advanced FIR II from Liquidsonics, and Voltra dynamic convolution from Acustica Audio (Ultrasound IR's)..... all sound sound very different and offer an assortment of reverb options covering real spaces, real hardware plates, to classic digital hardware of all types.

I've also personally worked in 6 studios that Altiverb has IR's for, it is a blessing to use some of the sets when I need a room I know. I've used most of the hardware Liquidsonics and AA have libraries for..... they are the closest to a real EMT plate..... NO ALGO comes close to how a real plate sounds, and I know as I've used several in 3 different studios. So If I want the real EMT sound, I can NOT get that sound from any algo plugin and must use convolution as it is the ONLY technology that is actually capturing what IS happening within the analogue device or space. While there are limits to some convolution and the quality if the IR's is up to the developer, the same is true of the Algo programmer.

Maybe I want a 960L or TC6000.... only with a quality IR can I get close, and don't get me started with actual presets from particular hardware. LOL

Hell no! You will NEVER physical model a real space, because you can not account for real harmonic's, air molecules, vibrations, room nodes or other real world space or hardware irregularities. Algorithmic physical modeling is a math based guess, nothing more. A dynamic sample based IR provides a more accurate representation of real spaces or hardware today. Similar to a sample based instrument yes, because Ivory VST sounds more real than any modeled piano Algo plugin can, as the sample based piano is actually the piano, if they ever begin using Voltra dynamic convolution on actual piano's, we will all be amazed at the realism, but that is the next logical step... no math based guessing needed.

Use all the math you want but you will never math out the 20th Century Fox scoring stage, or the Chapman stairwell, or the DARP B Room vocal booth, or the Patchwerk A Room glass tracking room, or the Zac's Stonehenge room, or the now gone Chung King Green room vocal booth. Even the algo's ported over from the hardware do not sound the same.... grab a hardware H3000 and the plugin..... the hardware has a different sound, but both are from Eventide, one of the best and oldest Algo makers around. Unfortunately, I need the IR's to get close to the H3000 I love.

Algorithmic technology comes from the late 1960's. We have plateaued in Algo technology and until Quantum computers are small and affordable we will continue to see the very small improvements in the tech, with very limited innovation. Give convolution technology another 20-30 years of advancement and watch what happens, it's just getting started.

You go on with just your algo's, I love having both tools myself......... as always, to each their own.

 

Last edited: Nov 21, 2016

I didnt even bother to reply to his nonsense.
Kudos to you for taking the time.

 

Exactly how I primarily use Altiverb. I LOVE the brick drum room. Once I started using it in this way, it just glued the mix together in a way nothing else was.
Also, in terms of CPU power, I find it to be quite efficient.
I just wasn't getting the same results using different algorithmic plugins for that room sound. They didn't sound "real" enough or warm enough for my taste. Of course, I'm working primarily with live recorded tracks in the Rock Genre. I should think that other genre' and working with samples/synths may require a different approach/different tools. Some EDM, for example, you may prefer a more unreal type of ambience.
As for reverb effects... Anything can and does go. But I'm finding myself going back to Altiverb for this stuff to because it's so easy to visualize and dial in the sound by picking a particular room.
I actually tried AltiVerb because 2+ instances of Abbey Road Plates was killing my CPU. I've really got to upgrade this tired old AMD!

 

So I tried Alti as a main Room for one of my actual projects (downtempo chill bassy electronic music, with some neuro parts too, koan sound inspired), and it fit SO well. Way better than any of my personnal room presets on my Valhallas.
I dont think the statement "in Electronic you might want more unreal room reverbs" is 100% true, so far in my experience it's not often the case, because instruments tracks and FX returns (talkin about others reverbs/delay within the same project) and the instruments themselves are already unreal, very often already swimming in dimension expanders, synth reverb, etc etc.
I dont often need 'unreal' room even in electronic, it's already there.

I'd prefer to simulate a real physical room (it's even way more crystal clear now that I have Altiverb) to help the mix translates especially in crappy rooms, but as always there is no solid "rules" or statements that are 100% true!

 

Last edited: Nov 23, 2016

I always love what @WillTheWeirdo has to say. Its like gospel

 

Thanks for the kind words. I come here to share my experience as I came up on the indie side of the biz and can relate to a younger perspective, hungry for quality information. I'm all for opinions, but incorrect, biased, ignorant or misleading information will always inspire me to post, out of a sense of responsibility as a professional. I also know enough to know I don't know enough, so I'm also out to keep learning.

To each their own.

 

Hype
UI
iLok protection :D
How expensive it is
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Sound?

Anyway, I rly wish that ppl would take more care w/ conv reverb production. I want to be able to "populate" (ie) concert halls w/ varying amounts of people (for example) just to see how that affects the sound. I guess that's why I think that algo will be the way to go in the future; maths is a bit less limiting - creating ur own "space" is a fascinating idea, especially if u can put lots of unpredictable shit (ie people, instruments, bears etcs) in it to make nice random reflects. Maybe u will only get a true sense of playing at xyz hall if there's a real orchestra & crowd there. Also, I wanna be able to close the curtains ffs. Is that too much to ask! =)

Maybe (flight of fantasy) we'll get to "record" actual instruments as resonators to be used almost like amp sims for sound, and position them in real (fake) time and space so that the real "virtual" instrument acts to reflect & absorb the sounds it produces in a virtual hall. Well, maybe in the future. *dreams*. Just hope that it's soon!

 

Couldn`t agree more, i`ve said it many, many times...algo is the future!

 

Srsly, VS, u know that ur (and my) beloved Altiverb uses algo too, rite? And u know that sampling alone isn't the beginning and end of music production, rite?

 

Sure, you can call me Sly, i dont mind.

 

Yes, you do walk the walk as well.
You have piqued my interest in different topics here and had me off searching for more knowledge, more than once I must say. I know that I am not alone when I say that Im glad for all that you contribute here.

 

People with instruments...OK
Instruments with bears...OK
People with bears...count me out sister, I just couldn't bear it.

 

Zaporozhets?