Toontrack SD3 SDX (FAKE Round Robins dismantled)

Discussion in 'Software' started by lasteno, Oct 12, 2021 at 7:22 AM.

  1. lasteno

    lasteno Platinum Record

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    Hi all I was Wondering for many years Why The Hi Hat from toontrack sound So.. "BAD" .. so randomly Strange.. if You have the Adjacent Layers ON ,_ so I take a deep look into it.. and in toontrack Forum .. and on web.. toontrack could Not Answer the question.. HOW many Round Robins does SDX uses?..
    so I turn Off the "Adjacent Layers" .and "Randomize". and Render the 127 midi velocities from 1 to 127 and compare the Audio Spectogram from the 127 audio files.. And BINGO.. the Answer is NONE ¡.. .. I made a comparison too with Adjacent layers ON.. and noup.. no round robins.. or Extra Samples.. (only a few extras samples on the HH like 5 hits more)127 midi notes 3 times same velocitys one after another.. and compare them.. too.. same result.

    From the "Tight Edge" Hi Hat articulation from the the SDX The Rockware House.. toontrack has only..
    39 Samples ¡ __.. that means that When you Hit let's say... Midi Velocity 100 4 times..
    SD3 toontrack will peak.. #1 100.. #2 99 #3 101 #4 98 The problem IS ... if you only have 39 Samples
    for 127 Velocities it will Do some like this.. #1 100.. #2 92 #3 107 #4 88... etc etc..

    mystery solved , SO the Question is...
    "MORE MICS" ?... or more "Samples for Articulation" ?

    Maybe Real Round Robins ?.. less Mics.. only Directs... OH, Amb 1, 2, and Far.. But MORE REALISM..

    and if you go to EZ libraries the thing get's even worst..

    I not Saying SD3 is BAD or GOOD ¡ .. just wanted to find the Reason Why in 2021 Drums Samples Still Sound So.. randomly Bad.. if you are a Real Drummer.. You will notice.. if your are not.. well.. maybe you will miss..

    anyway.. 170 GB or Room Samples.. Mics Vs Realism ? ..but only 39 samples for one Hi hat Articulation .. that is a joke.

    Screen Shot 2021-10-12 at 1.21.07.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 12:07 PM
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  3. odelay

    odelay Ultrasonic

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    In Superior Drummer 3 help forums I have read that in "Legacy of Rock" SDX a user found out that by choosing a particular kick drum and playing a series of kick notes (I can't remember, but it was a high velocity), in one of the round robin samples the voice of the recording engineer could be heard on the ambient mics! - Probably, he forgot he should not talk to the drummer in the room through the intercom while the tail of the ambient mics was recording the natural room reverberation. There was even a link to a YouTube video he recorded with his mobile phone to prove that faulty sample existed. I own that SDX library, I did the test myself and I was able to check that it was true. Every 4 notes or so, the voice of the recording engineer could be heard. So, there are at least 4 Round-robin samples for one particular velocity layer in the kick-drum, since only one out of every four notes showed the faulty sample. Perhaps we should take into account that normally a kick drum (except in very fast double kick grooves) does not play many notes in one bar, and not all of them at the same velocity. And kit pieces with more activity (snare drum, Hi-Hat) most likely have more round robin samples because you can find many more notes within one bar.
     
  4. lasteno

    lasteno Platinum Record

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    There is NO Round Robins in ALL Toontracks Products.. They Don't USE Round Robins.. They use samples from another Velocities ..to
    Randomize "The Sound" but it is NOT Round Robins.. yes those Technical Things could happen not a big deal for me.. yes you are Right..

    Toontrack Really needs to start Recording Real Round Robins... OR at least More Velocities for Every Articulation.. 40.. 50.. it is a Joke..even 60 ¡.. I mean it is ok.. but When you KNOW there is no ROUND ROBINs.. that means.. ONLY 50 hits Randomly Pick.. ..that's All you Get .. not 40 x 4... noup.. only 40 samples.. Specially the Hi Hats and the Snare.

    Spend All that Time.. Energy and Money.. Mics etc.. to only record 50 Hits for an Articulation .... sounds like a Bad deal to me. Maybe Tha's why they encrypt their libraries... I mean.. and if you BUY the Samples.. why not have independent access to All of them? ..
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 9:39 AM
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  5. lasteno

    lasteno Platinum Record

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    22 samples Only for the Hi Hat #5 - Articulation (Open Edge 1) from the SDX The Rock Foundry ..
    this is getting Funny .. put all those Mics to Record only 22 Samples ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿???????..
    upload_2021-10-12_3-54-8.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 10:03 AM
  6. BEAT16

    BEAT16 Audiosexual

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    I checked what Round Robin means:

    Round robin samples (RR)
    are alternative recordings of the same beat (same note) with identical velocity. The fact that even with the highest precision of the instrumentalist two hits never sound exactly the same, the alternating playback of the round robin samples takes into account by ensuring subtle variations. The notorious machine gun effect is avoided.

    This arises when there is only one sample per note and velocity value, which is triggered several times in succession: The always same sound of the same sample is perceived as unnatural and technical, as if produced by an “automaton”.

    The use of round robin samples varies greatly from product to product. Many manufacturers limit themselves to two or three variants, some of which can then be played according to different patterns (a-b-a-b, a-b-c-a, a-b-c-b-a or according to a random selection).

    More complex products, such as World Percussion from evolution series / Best Service, offer up to 10 round robin samples.

    Holger Obst www.releasetime.de/round-robin/

    Need Help with Round Robins & Drums
    https://vi-control.net/community/threads/need-help-with-round-robins-drums.89452/
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 10:23 AM
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  7. Ŧยχøя

    Ŧยχøя Audiosexual

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    As interesting and useful as this can be,
    the question is also how does it compare to other Drum VSTs?

    It would be interesting to know the numbers on BFD, SSD or even Addictive Drums,
    and see what could be gathered out of it..

    However I'm suspecting similar things will happen on other vsts sometimes,
    depending on the particular library/expansion/part etc..


    In BFD-2 I can tell you it's got a Lot of different hits/samples,
    and they are Ordered in a certain way that can be heard and accounted for..
    (good to have humanization and anti-machinegun mode off to see it tho..)

    For instance raising the Velocity with Cymbals you will have a certain number of hits of one Type, like say 5 hits,
    then the same for Second type, Third type, Fourth..
    and then start over with more Intensity, but the whole order/type Cycle tends to repeat..

    So while it may be less smooth/gradual than what would be optimal/perfect,
    and while the absolute Volume level might oscillate a bit between one type of hit/another, regardless of actual velocity..

    It can be handy, as it kinda allows you to pinpoint the Exact sample/sound that you need for that particular hit/moment.


    I guess this will vary from Part to part, Kit to kit, Expansion to expansion,
    and one could argue that is not the most Perfect and Smooth/gradual thing possible..

    However I find it to be a good compromise in terms of Production,
    where I will just select every single drum hit to be the best/most exact hit for that particular moment..


    As for the Numbers, how many types of hits, number of hits, round robins etc,
    I've got no idea, but if you want to analyze it.. be my guest!

    Also SSD and AD would be interesting to know.. :wink:
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 2:49 PM
  8. BEAT16

    BEAT16 Audiosexual

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    The User: DSmolken from https://vi-control.net/community/threads/need-help-with-round-robins-drums.89452/ said:

    What I'd do is: record a couple hundred hits, going up and down in waves from quiet to loud and back down. Don't worry about aiming for a specifc level with each hit. Sort them by peak level afterwards. Find the four loudest ones that are close in peak to each other (the very loudest will probably be outliers). That's your loudest velocity layer. Try to find four hits that are, say, 3 dB quieter than that, for the second loudest layer etc. until you can't get a four consistent hits anymore. Keep the spacing between the layers consistent, too - in the middle, you'll probably have a lot of hits close together and could make a lot of layers spaced like 1 dB apart or less, but I wouldn't.

    I've also seen drum kits which just recorded a ton of velocity layers with no round robins as such, and then for each hit, randomly chose a sample from a pool of hits within some number of that. So, for 127 layers recorded, let's say we have an incoming note with MIDI velocity 89. Every other hit might use 86, 88, 90 or 92, and every other hit would use 87, 89 or 91 - something like that. That ensures the same sample doesn't repeat twice, and there's a little dynamic variation. Of course you could make that variation range a parameter the user can control.

    Having said all that, for pop or hip-hop four or five velocity layers with four round robins each might be all you need. And for death metal you might want like 8 round robins at velocity 127, maybe 4 for a few layers below that going to 90 or so, and anything below that would likely just be used for occasional accents and might not need round robins at all.
     
  9. lasteno

    lasteno Platinum Record

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    yes i know.. but 40 samples only? you gotta be joking..i am drummer i know why now sd3 doesn't sound real .... specially the hi hat ..

    and no left + right hand.. of course if you are going to make a "pop" song.. "electro".. no problem.. but if you are a real drummer you immediately notice it.. that being said ,,, vst .. samples:. have a lllllllllllloooong way to get to the real thing.. i get more a realistic sound.. when i play bfd3 with my v-drum.. than when i use sd3 .. specially the jsd expansion.. and speacially when you isolate the drum.. meaning.. amb mics off.. only the close.. but the hi hats from bfd3 sounds terrible they go from "tight to open 3 .. 4.. 5.."_nothing in between_.. so.. anyway.. 40 hits.. that is joke for me.. the snare sometimes have 80 90 hits.. but the hats? noup.. only a few.. and only in the "close" the more open .. the less hits you get.. maybe i will have to combine them.. use the hats from sd3 and the rest from bfd3..


    if you want to emulate the real thing.. not hi hop.. or metal.. i will say drums samples still have a long way to go.. any real drummer... can hear it.. it doesn't have to be metal.. maybe someone will make a the big jump in the drums samples industry.. but now 2021.. we are not yet there.

    there is one drum sample that sound 30 times better than sd3 and maybe than bfd3 .. mixosaurus . that one sounds very close to the real thing.

    In toontrack if you hit 8 times the same velocity.. it sounds like .. I don't know.. Bad.. so That is Why.. 90 ... then.. 86.. 95..79.. etc etc.. too much Randomness with a Small Pool of Samples give you a Bad Result.. the physics of The Real World on "Drums" does not Do that.. .. maybe they just Need to increase their Sample Pool.. at Least 120 hits.. or 100.. minimum because you have No RR,, The Vst Will Pick other samples.. and well again.. the same Strange Random Result.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 11:26 AM
  10. BEAT16

    BEAT16 Audiosexual

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    Thank you for your experience report. It reads like Toontrack isn't as good as it always claims. So the way I understand you, it's not that realistic, so it doesn't replace real drums. Can normal users hear the difference too? Should I forget ToonTrack and delete it?

    Is my drum machine more realistic than toontrack? I own a "Roland Dr Rhythm DR-880" hardware drum machine.

    I read the book too " Drum Programming: A Complete Guide to Program and Think Like a Drummer von Ray F. Badness
    www.amazon.de/Drum-Programming-Complete-Program-Drummer/dp/0931759544
     
  11. lasteno

    lasteno Platinum Record

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    No problem.. no don't delete it ¡ hahahaha.. SD3 and BFD3 are the only ones Out there..maybe.. some other kontakt drum libraries.. but they always fail on the Hi Hats.. always..even SD3 it is not very well "Programmed" if you Hit the 50 velociy on the HH Tight Edge.. and then Edge.. and then .. open0, 1,2,3 The Volumen doesn't Match.. Meaning the Overall Curve volumen of the samples between the samples are Not Very Well Calibrated.. giving you a Bad result when you move the CC4 foot pedal.. you can specially hear it on .. SDX Death and Darkness hi hats .. and they haven't fix it yet.. they only Release More and More.. But no Fixes.. and they still selling the Product.. with Errors.. of that Kind.. quality vs quantity.. I will choose quality. make a Better Product.. not a Better Commercial for the product. anuway.. thanks for the info.. I will read that book.. Yes.. I'm very interested on Drums Vst Samples. the curve of the recorded samples.. can be easily manipulate it , volumen.. and even time.. you can make a "Close Edge HH" hit sound like a Open0. or 1.. with Reaper time stretch .. we haven't advanced that much in The Drum Sampler World.. only more Mics.. and "mixed" by someone.. but that is another Topic..

    Maybe the Hi Hat will need another Articulation not only EDGE and TIP.. and bell.. Something in Between,

    maybe we Need Left + Right Hand.. it is not the same.. at all. when you hit something with your left and right hand.. so.. still a lot of progress to be made in that regard
     
  12. BEAT16

    BEAT16 Audiosexual

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    Thanks @lasteno for the insight into the matter and Suggestions what still needs to be done.
     
  13. centrifuge

    centrifuge Noisemaker

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    I don't know how many samples would make a fairly good sampled hi-hat. But this I'm sure of: if you're using way more snare samples than hi-hat samples, that's some really flawed criteria.
    A LOT more attention should be paid to the cymbals, and SPECIALLY to the hi-hat.
    The nuances of a hi-hat are truly infinite, that's why this is the Achilles heel of every drum sampler.
    Don't get me wrong, I use SD3 sooooooo much and I do think it's the best drum sampler today, BUT 60% of the time I record the hi-hats myself (sometimes the rides also, those usually sound terrible too).
    Now, of course the difficult part is matching my room (which is more or less embedded in my hi-hat recording) to the room of the library I'm using, but it works. I turn off the close hi-hat mic on SD3 and leave the room, ambiance and almost every bleed mic ON, serve them to taste and (very important) TUNE them to match my hi-hat as close as possible.
    Very important also: miking, eq and compression on my hi-hat recording tries to match the library too.
     
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  14. lasteno

    lasteno Platinum Record

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    absolutely, you are going to hit the Hi Hat 100 more than the Snare the Snare is the One on SDX libraries that has More samples The Hi Hat is the One that has Less "Samples" in All SDX libraries.
     
  15. centrifuge

    centrifuge Noisemaker

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    Well... that's bad and it explains a lot... I've only really used the Factory Library, Decades and a couple of EZX for actual work. But there are some SDX out there weighting 100+ gb that make you wonder: ¿where is all that sampling going? cause even the snares on Hansa have shits for dynamics.
    Again, even with those gripes, best drum sampler today, in sound and production workflow.
     
  16. xoso

    xoso Kapellmeister

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    This has been an issue for a long time, I hate ragging on SDX because I've been using it since V2 for almsot 10 years but I've had to find work around and tweaks to get everything to work how I want. And I legit own almost every SDX kit and there are different issues with each kit and version of SD 2/3. This issue I tend to do velocity tweaking or at worse export the seperated drum piece [bass/snare/highhat etc] and then manually cut/copy/pasted the bad ones out. But there are midi manipulations that can help

    As for using any of the default kit settings that comes with them HAHAHAHA. I've never had a preset in SDX ever sound good without MAJOR tweaking. Like Steven SLate drums they are out of the box ready to use with maybe some slight volume tweaking [even though the cymbals sounds like paper crap] but Honestly I don't know the last time I didn't spend hours making custom kits that require at least 3-6 different SDX kits. and then having to tweak the mic settings and all of that because none of the kits let you replace easily. Some kicks have to be turned all the way up or are louder than should be.

    The round Robin however can be highly manipulated through midi, which I do for snares all the time for off hits that round robin doesn't always use the right inflection of what is needed.But in the end it's up to toontrack to fix because it's the best there is out there.

    Also sometimes I use multi SDX kits to get mics right and so round robins act different by seperating say the cymbals/highhat kit with a different kit for toms/kick/snare using EZX kit on mute to see what's actually being played by the multiple SDX kits to trick it into working how I want it.

    So there are tweaks, work arounds, for most things including the original topic, just takes a lot more work especially if your goal is making better drum kits than you hear on major label albums.

    Also it helps to route out all the mics to your mixer and then applying effects to each mic. But it all depends how deep into SDX/EZX you are. Some think it's all 1 kit is all you need and some of us route out multiple kits to have record ready kits ready.


    Still for high hats round robin def needs to be manipulated by midi velocity and if you examine the included drum midi's you'll see just how much the velocity of the note effects the round robin. Can't 127 vel every note nor should you unless your just in the writing stage. It's very rare for me to have any parts of a drum kit on full velocity. Ya just gotta get technical with it and spend time if your gonna use SDX. Cuz nothing ever for SDX from v2-v3 ever has had a ready to go kit with screwed up settings, volumes that make no sense, etc.

    Write in EZX and then take the 10-20 hours perfecting SDX to make it right.
     
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  17. Graf

    Graf Producer

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    hi guys, has anyone asked which controller/ HH pad your using? or module?
    i get your point, you want for your even tempered playing to sound even, but not all controllers are the same sensitivity.
    for me ( td-25/vh-11 ) i can get a pretty even sound atleast for my ears, but i have to change my sensitivity level in the td-25 from one song to another. if laying down a pocket groove on the tops i get better result lowering my sensitivity. if i want to crush something i raise it. just me. but have you addressed this at all? im sure you feel its all the samples, but just trying to help. good luck
     
  18. piano_man

    piano_man Noisemaker

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    Actually, this post has potential of going viral, based on the proven facts within it ... THEN you'd see many library updates from TT very quick...
     
  19. Graf

    Graf Producer

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    it was probably a conscious decision rather than a slight of hand. i can see their reasoning for using adjacent layers, and we can audition the results with and without. real drums are imperfect, like most real instruments. it almost sounds like OP is trying to draw perfect drums, rather than playing them. unless he really can hit a trigger pad consistently at a 98 OR 100 velocity. in which case pack a sandwich and a flashlight. at that point you might be better off writing the part and hiring a studio player. they need guys like you for work.

    someone here mentioned building your own sample library, thats another good option. or you could try BFD which uses a different RR system. i own BFD legit but just have my preferences, and make my choice.

    but expectly this dev to jump because you're crying that you didnt get enough milk probably wont go viral.
     
  20. lasteno

    lasteno Platinum Record

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    noup I not trying to do anything.. just telling what is the true inside those "samples files" that's all .. yes adjacent Samples "layers" is not a bad idea..if you Recorded 127 Samples.. AT least-- 40 only it is a joke.. that means less realism and when you play 16th notes on the hi hats you can hear it immediately... Maybe if Fxpansion Does or Copy that trick idea of "Adjacent Layers" the way "Toontrack" does it will sound MORE real than toontrack.. because bfd3 uses a lot more samples for articulation on the hi hats.. PROBLEMS.. always.. FIXES?.. they don't just release more and more.. and keep selling it.. with errors.. If I were Them I will Fix the Problems First.. Second I will Record more Samples for every hi hat articulation .. not only 60 for the Closes ones.. and 40 or less for the open ones.. and make the curve between all hi hat articulations more consistently..

    The Thing is Simple.. when the Years Passes and The Hype disappears.. You will start looking for a Better Improve "Product" not More of the same.. Better Perfected technics and Better Products.. not more and more of the same.. with the same errors and mistakes.. And..of course The Hi Hats has been a Big Issue for Real Drummers over the years.. it startedwith Only "Close" and then "Open" .... that's all..back in those days.. not we have 8 articulations.. Good that is Good ¡ but if you are not carefully with the Recording techniques, you are going to end with a Mess .. you will hit the 90 Midi velocity then open a little bit more you pedal.. and the Next Articulation Triggers But it has not the Same Amount of Samples.. and the overall curve of That Articulation is Different than the previous one.. and you end up with a Fake hi hat.. more volumen.. with the same midi velocity and your ears immediately pick it.. it is just Quality that Companies should be aiming for..
    Perfection .. and Learn from your mistakes.. and Admitted first .. so.. more of the same?.. with 20 mics?... with same mistakes? or.. Less SDX libraries with less mics and Much Much more samples and Quality Control ?

    Yes I have recorded my own samples on the hi hats.. the way I like it.. and it is Another Game ¡ you cannot tell the difference when the hi hat is openning 10 layers of openness.. 127 velocities well calibrated ,, if I can do it on a sunday why a company so "BIG" as Toontrack Can't ?

    Random on toontrack Means "Adjacent Layers".. sometimes they drop only 6 or 7 hits more.. but that's all.. It does not means "Round Robins".. Toontrack does not use round robuns.. if I am a drummer and I hit with my hands a Snare.. with the same force.. I DON'T want the sound of "other samples" recorded with less physical force to be triggered , I want a constantly "SOUND" without the Machine Gun effect.. 2 ways fo make it that happen.. With a lot of samples... or.. with Round robins.. or maybe with some Strange Software Tricks.. but we are talking about Real Drums.. Real Mics .. so..

    Don't get me wrong.. 170 Gb of samples on 3 drum kits should mean more Realism right?.. more Samples.. not 22 more Amb Mics.. with Less and Less samples.. so there you have it., maybe a NEW company will come into place ..and Make a Superior Product than Superior Drummer who knows.

    Just Mute all the AMBIENT mics on Any SDX new libraries .. forget about the 22 ambients mics.. or WHo record it... etc etc all that hype.. you will hear it doesn't sounds so good after all. even SDX N.Y. has better recorded samples.. than the new ones.. the core library sound very Bad.. you cannot get a Hard hit on the Snare.. no matter how hard you hit it.. sounds like "SOFT".. 240 gb of bad samples.. i mean of course you can make a good mix with it.. with a lot of mixing tricks.. and Hours of making them sound better.. but that is not the point.. Quality is the point Evolution.. better performances from the drummer that is recording it.. and don't make the same Mistakes again and again.. learn.. improve it.. nail it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021 at 3:00 PM
  21. Graf

    Graf Producer

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    i love when the peasants rush the castle, you guys are so cute. its exciting. and i love flicking buggers at ya. but you gotta scream louder, and honestly... 4 guys with two pichforks isnt that exciting. maybe if one guy trades pitchfork for a torch??
    we dont really care what you can prove, but your just gonna have to bring it up a notch. K? can you do that?
     
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