The Secrets of Music. Hard to Find Info Techniques

Discussion in 'Education' started by MMJ2017, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Part IV

    Actual application .


    Let's take a common progression of a song in the Key of Cmaj A relative minor .

    Cma7,A7,Dmin7,G7,Cmaj,Emin7,A7,Dmin7,G7,Cmaj

    This progression is 162536251

    For the first chord we use Cmaj6th scale of chords .

    But let's zero in on the next portion

    Cmaj7,A7,Dmin7,G7,.....

    You see A7 is the V7 of Dmin7.

    Dmin7 DFAC= F6.FACD

    So we can use the F6 scale of chords to cover the A7,Dmin7 portion of the progression .
    Let's see how.
    EGA#C# ...Edim7 =A7b9 no root
    FACD........Fmaj6 = Dmin7 DFAC
    GA#C#E
    ACDF
    A#C#EG
    CDFA
    C#EGA#.....A7
    DFAC..........Dmin7
    EGA#C#
    FACD

    You see with this one scale of chords we can
    Navigate the music structure of A7,Dmin7

    Let's look back at our structure once more

    Cmaj7,A7,Dmin7,G7,Cmaj

    So far we have C6 scale of chords
    Going into F6 scale if chords
    Now we have left
    ...G7,Cmaj7
    That's easy right back what we began with
    C6 scale of chords .
    ( Remember the V7 Bdim7 contained inside of the Cmaj6 scale of chords outlines the G7 structure.

    Now we have

    Cmaj7,A7,Dmin7,G7,Cmaj7

    Structure being navigated by
    C6 scale of chords ( Cmaj7
    F6 scale of chords (A7,Dmin7
    C6 scale of chords (G7,Cmajor

    Now the second portion is 3625
    Emin7,A7,Dmin7,G7,Cmaj7

    We can use what we already have here because the Emin7 is only a substitution for Cmaj7.

    But you can also use the Emin7 (G6 scale of chords

    G6 GBDE = Emin7 EGBD

    The dim7 semitone below is
    F#dim7 F#ACD#

    So

    F#ACD#...B7b9
    GBDE........Emin7
    ACD#F#
    BDEG
    CD#F#A
    DEGB
    D#F#AC.....B7b9
    EGBD........Emin7
    F#ACD#
    GBDE
     
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  2. Radioactive Fallout

    Radioactive Fallout Kapellmeister

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    What should be taught when:

    The diversity of style in the music of the twentieth century requires more than one system of analysis. Several systems have been proposed, but none appears to be useful for all styles of music.:dunno:
     
  3. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    come on radioactive.....its not rocket science ...its art.....ears open have a jolly time
     
  4. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    This is correct, there are several languages.(for 12tone e.t.)

    Tonal language.
    Modal language
    Polytonal language
    Atonal language.

    I have focused mostly on Tonal language .
    And have talked some about modal language also
    Polytonal language uses multiple different keys at once , and is less commonly enjoyed by the public but good to learn and get into later on for study if you want.
    Atonal language is a arbitrary man made system
    Which has non musical made rules which when developed was just an attempt at innovation
    However , the sound is despised by most people most of the time ( I enjoy a lot of it actually )
    It's good for musical scholars to learn that's about it.
    There are several languages outside of equal temperament.
    This systems are based on geography and culture . These are mostly significant to native people's as cultural and historical study.
    They have made little impact in musical taste and music culture ( other then small communities)
    For instance microtonal language ( and it's subcategories)

    When we take all of that into account there is a highest percentage of impact placed on Tonal language and modal language of 12tone e.t.
    Therefore that's is what I have discussed.
    ( These are the most significant impact on the music from around the world.)
    I personally believe if you can though ,
    Please take time to study these others less impactful languages .
    .
     
  5. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Secrets of the scales
    Part I
    Shape movement .

    We take C major key break it down to diatonic chords and modes .

    1.CEGB.......CDEFGABC
    2.DFAC........DEFGABCD
    3.EGBD.........EFGABCDE
    4.FACE..........FGABCDEF
    5.GBDF..........GABCDEFG
    6.ACEG..........ABCDEFGA
    7.BDFA..........BCDEFGAB

    Now we are going to focus on navigating the C major scale , from the perspective of each chord .
    By following a specific shape .

    ( This helps us to be able to outline the chords with melody and move in ways other than most basic.
    By getting used to several ways to move around we develop our ability to create more original music .)

    We begin with this pattern which we then take through each mode . The pattern outlines the chord through melody.

    Pattern is 12345431
    And the pattern showing strong beats
    12345431
    Can you see how it uses the diatonic scale while outlining the chord?

    Let's use it
    1.CEGB..........CDEFGABC

    Here is what we get .
    CDEFGFEC

    2.DFAC......DEFGABCD

    DEFGAGFD

    But watch adding both of them together.

    CDEFGFECDEFGAGFD

    You see they connect to create an Ascending
    Melody which outlines the chord while climbing to the next chord up.
    Let's now see all the ascending patterns .

    3.EGBD.....EFGABCED

    EFGABAGE

    4.FACE.......FGABCDEF

    FGABCBAF

    5.GBDF.....GABCDEFG

    GABCDCBG

    6.ACEG.......ABCDEFG

    ABCDEDCA

    7.BDFA.......BCDEFGAB

    BCDEFEDB

    Now we have done each one on its own,
    Let's combine them all into one pattern which ascends the c major scale outlining the chords melodically with this ascending pattern.

    CDEFGFECDEFGAGFD.EFGABAGE.FGABCBAF
    GABCDCBG.ABCDEDCA.BCDEFEDBC long
     
  6. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Part II ( descending

    Now we have seen ascending the scale with this pattern 12345431

    Now for descending our pattern is
    12343216
    And here is the strong beats
    12343216

    Remember this pattern is for descending
    ( CBAGFEDC)

    1.CEGB.......CDEFGABC

    CDEFEDCA


    7.BDFA........BCDEFGAB

    BCDEDCBG

    Now, before moving on to the rest let's first see both of these connected .

    CDEFEDCA.BCDEDCBG.ABC.........

    you see , the pattern outlines the chord with a Melody while descending the c major scale.

    Let's now continue with the pattern for the rest of them and then see them all connected .

    6.ACEG.............ABCDEFGA

    ABCDCBAF

    5.GBDF................GABCDEFG

    GABCBAGE

    4.FACE..........FGABCDEF

    FGABAGFD

    3.EGBD.............EFGABCDE

    EFGAGFEC

    2.DFAC.............DEFGABCD

    DEFGFEDB

    1.CEGB........CDEFGABC

    CDEFEDCA

    There is each one outlining the chord .

    Now let's combine them into one melody which descends through the C major scale while outlining the chord . Here is the whole thing.

    CDEFEDCA.BCDEDCBG.ABCDCBAF.GABCBAGE.
    FGABAGFD.EFGAGFEC.DEFGFEDB.CDEFEDCAC.

    Now we have seen the ascending pattern and the descending pattern
    Please go slow at first take your time and let it flow naturally.
     
  7. Radioactive Fallout

    Radioactive Fallout Kapellmeister

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    Maybe @23322332 could explain it better.:dunno:
    It's so complicated that I don't know from where I start.
     
  8. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    incomprehensible........ careful radioactive.... you begin to sound as gratuitous as our old friend FOSTER....!!!! mmmwwwwaaahhhhhhh
     
  9. Olymoon

    Olymoon Impossible is not a fact. It is an opinion. Staff Member

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    Are we going off topic again?
     
  10. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    apologies......
     
  11. Olymoon

    Olymoon Impossible is not a fact. It is an opinion. Staff Member

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    OK, guys, let's play the same game again. Next off topic comments got a 2 point warning each.
    You decide.
     
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  12. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    great stuff MMJ ...one question...do you present these scales as a means to access fragments and phrases of melodic material......while the chord sounds?
     
  13. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Yes, that is right .
    There is a hierarchy of.
    1.form ex.AABA
    2.KEY...ex C major
    3.progressions ex Cmaj, Fmaj7,Fmin6,Bb7,C6
    4.Chord ex Fmin6 FAbCEb
    3.scales ex Fmelodic minor FGAbBbCDE
    4.individual notes. Ex melody Ab C E Down F
    This level is what gets heard as sound.

    So when using as scale you are basically zoomed inside of form, inside key, inside Progressions, inside chord.
    That is the level of detail which the scale you are using exists at.

    In this example you are in the key of Cmajor .
    Then accessing the IVminor progression
    Cmaj,Fmin6,Cmaj

    You outline the chord tones then use the F melodic minor scale which resolves back to Cmajor.
    Everything exists inside key of C major .
    Even though you use a subdominant
    Category progression C major is the key and focus .
    Try this .

    Dmin7,G7,Cmaj,Amin7
    Cmaj,Fmin6,C6

    You always have a scale for each chord in the progression.
    The initial key lays out the tonal focus
    ( But does not)
    Have anything to do with scales over chords.
    The scale of the key is zoomed out level compared to the zoomed in level of using a scale over a chord
    ( Some people don't know this.
    I'm not acussing anyone in particular )

    Here's another example though.
    This melody

    D down C down B up C up E up G

    Represents.
    Dmin7,G7, Cmaj


    Now you have several scales to choose from.
    You choose based on the function.

    If we have a turnaround in C major .
    Cmaj,A7,Dmin7,G7,Emin7,A7,Dmin7,G7

    See the Emin7?
    It's a tonic chord in C major same as using C major .
    So you wouldn't use a subdominant scale like Dorian you would use Cmajor scale , or Clydian , or C6 scale of chords
    Take A7
    That's A V7 ( dominant ) of Dmin7
    A cadence .
    So you use D Lydian dominant, or G harmonic minor scale
    Take the Dmin7 , that's a subdominant function ( cadence to Cmajor
    You use D Dorian scale there.

    After explaining that
    You always are able to use the chromatic scale where chromatic notes are in the off beat for Any chord.
    Ex.
    A part of song is Dmin7,G7,Cmaj
    So a cadence in C Maj
    Now let's zoom in
    Only taking about Dmin7 chord portion.
    And going to create a Melody
    Based on that subdominant function .

    E C# D F A C

    The E and C# notes represent the V7 of Dmin7
    So A7b9 to Dmin7

    You always can add a Cadence to any chord in the progression
    If you have Dmin7,G7,C6
    You can always have
    A7,Dmin7,G7,C6
    Now if you turn it around
    C6,A7,Dmin7,G7,
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  14. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    If we take key of C major.
    The Bdim7 chord.
    BDFG#
    Expand it's 4 dominant 7th chords.

    Bb7,C#7,E7,G7

    Take G7 our V7 of C6

    So you have a Dmin6 with G root
    DFAB
    Over
    G
    Well Dmin6 used D melodic minor scale
    DEFGABC#D
    If we look at fourth mode
    GABC#DEFG. G Lydian dominant

    It's GBDFAC#E G13#11
    All the notes in the scale are extensions that work on a G7 chord.
    We know G7 is V7 of C6 the I tonic in Cmaj KEY
    What about the other 3 dominant chords that come from Bdim7?

    Look at Bb7

    Bb7 = Fmin6 over Bb
    Well F min6 = Fmelodic minor scale
    ( This our IV minor progression )

    FGAbBbCDEF F melodic minor look at
    It's 4th mode
    Bb Lydian dominant Bb CDEFGAb Bb

    What about our other 2 dominant chords which cone from Bdim7?

    Take E7.
    EG#BD
    Bmin6
    Over E
    Bmin6 = B C#D E F# G# A#
    The 4th mode is
    E Lydian dominant E F# G# A# B C# DE
    All 7 notes fit over E7 ( V7 of A relative minor .
    And in C major E7 is the III7 progression
    Cmaj,E7,Cmaj
    You just use the E Lydian dominant scale over that chord .
    ( Note can also play it as
    C6,Fdim7,C6 ( Fdim7 is rootless E7b9

    That leaves our last dominant chord which comes from Bdim7 BDFG#

    C#7
    C#FG#B
    G#min6 over C#
    G#min6 = G# melodic minor
    G# A# B C# D# F G G#
    The 4th mode is C#
    C# Lydian dominant .
    C# D# F G G# A# B C#
    All 7 notes fit over C#7
    ( C#7 is the G7 altered.
    So 4 dominant chords stem from Bdim7
    They are all tied into C major and A relative minor
    In C major G7 is V7, C#7 is tritone sub
    In Amin E7 is V7 ,Bb7 is tritone sub
    The Bdim7 BDFG#
    The Ddim7 DFG#B
    The Fdim7 FG#BD
    The G#dim7 G#BDF
    Are all representing all this based on what you add to the one Dim7 chord you can break it out in all those ways and situations and the scales which fit with those progressions and chords.

    This information I'm describing is built into the fabric of music itself.
    It's not man-made fabricated .
    This is how all the progression and substitutions for a key works.
    How scales and what scales for chords.

    This works same for all keys.

    But it goes so much further I just described Bdim7 related to 1 key Cmaj A rel min.
    But i
    Look

    Cmaj key Eb Maj key F# Maj key , Amaj key
    All use Bdim7
    And what I just described holds true for these 4 keys .
    This is because there is a larger structure than a key.
    A " key collection "
    Just like a note collection is called A scale
    There is a key collection also
    ( All a key is a link between a major and minor cadence that's all )
    Key of C major and A relative minor is linked by Fmaj7
    And same for all keys.
    Then a key collection is 4 keys linked by 1 dim7 master chord.
    Bdim7 BDFG#
    Is linked to 4 major keys.
    Cmajorkey
    D#najorkey
    F#majorkey
    Amajorkey

    And everything I described in the beginning about c major holds true for the other 3 keys related to Bdim7
    As well.
    Once you learn this information.
    You will know every progression , substitution, scales for keys , then what keys are related .

    All this is built into music itself .
    It's how music works.
    The " secrets of music"
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  15. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Let's zero in on the fabric of music some more.
    If we look at the G whole tone scale
    G A B C# D# F G
    All notes are a whole step apart
    This is symmetrical.
    This means what ever form we find in there is applicable to each note in the scale because they all are equally important .
    It is a package of information just like A Dim7 chord is .

    G wholetone GABC#D#FG
    If we think key of C major , V7 G7
    We can build this chord
    GBD#FAC#
    G9#5#11
    However look at this .

    GBD#FAC#
    AC#FGBD#
    BD#GAC#F
    C#FABD#G
    D#GBC#FA
    FAC#D#GB

    Each one of these chords is a V9#5#11
    Yet ,
    All these notes are in one scale
    The
    G wholetone scale.

    Let's look at the other ( only 2 wholetone scales)

    C D E F# G# A# C

    Think the secondary dominants ( In Cmajor)
    C7
    D7
    E7
    DF#A#CEG#
    D9#5#11
    But as before look
    DF#A#CEG#
    EG#CDF#A#
    F#A#DEG#C
    G#CEF#A#D
    A#DF#G#CE
    CEG#A#DF#

    Each one is a V9#5#11 chord,
    Yet all these chords use the notes and only the notes in C wholetone scale
    C D E F# G# A# C

    This is a way to package a lot of information about the chromatic scale broken into 2 symmetrical equal scales , then related to a key .
    Symmetrical shapes in 12 tone et are the key to packaging the way music works into your subconscious to use on the fly using
    Psychological " chunking"
    To avoid the limitations of the small number of objects we can fit in short-term memory .
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  16. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    hi MMj thanks for a great inspiration mate.....could you elaborate on real world use of this info when composing melodies and harmony please??
     
  17. Radioactive Fallout

    Radioactive Fallout Kapellmeister

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    Deleted!
    Sorry. I found the answer to my question. :bow:
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  18. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Hello my friend, thank you.
    Yes you got it :)

    Let's say you are in the KEY of C major .

    Let's say your structure is

    Cmaj7/ A7/ Dmin7/ G7/ Emin7/A7/ Dmin7/ G7/

    So we have 1625,3625
    The 3 in the 3625 is a substitute for 1 so we essentially have the same progression twice.
    Let's take the first half.

    Cmaj7/ A7/ Dmin7/ G7/

    We can see that in our 1625

    Our 6.ACEG Amin7 has been changed.
    It is turned into
    5.AC#EG A7
    It is a V7 of Dmin7 .
    This strengthens the landing in Dmin7.
    Then we have our G7 V7 of Cmaj7.

    So
    Cmaj7/ A7/ Dmin7/ G7/

    Two are dominant chords.

    If we look at our G wholetone scale.
    G A B C# D# F G

    We have GBD#FAC# G9#5#11
    And we have
    AC#FGCD#
    A9#5#11

    So we can see a dominant chord
    Which shares all the same notes
    As the other dominant chord.
    However sometimes the #5 can be pretty harsh.
    Maybe we want to remove that.
    GBFAC# ( G9#11 no 5th
    AC#GBD# ( A9#11 no 5th

    Now keep in mind we will keep in back of our head
    To use the sharp 5ths on the "off beat" just not on the strong beat which defines our harmony.

    So in our 4 chord progression .
    2 of the chords are 7th chords.
    Cmaj7/ A7/ Dmin7 G7/

    It is during that time period we can use this information about the symmetrical wholetone scale
    .
    Now before we write what to play on the 2 other chords , let's just look at our options for the 2 dominant chords which we are applying this wholetone scale.

    A7 then G7

    G7 is GBD#FAC# with D# only used on off beat
    A7 is AC#FGCD# with F only on off beat

    So F augmented over G augmented .
    Then same thing in inversion

    Check this out .
    For A7 that comes first in progression
    The chord which comes after it is DFACE ( Dmin7
    So the A7 is going to resolve to DFAC
    AC#GC..D#
    13...79#11

    We can have the #5th F on the off beat
    Now because we can think of Faug over Gaug
    For both chords look
    GBD#FAC# Faug over Gaug
    13#579#11

    AC#FGBD#
    13#579#11 Gaug over Faug first inversions

    We just have to take care in not putting the #5ths on the beat ( if we want less crunchy sound)

    So first let's skip our Cmaj7/ for now and just create the melody for
    ....A7/ Dmin7.....

    AFC#D#GBC#ADACFEC
    .
    that gives us the A7/ Dmin7 portion
    Now let's
    Write the melody for the G7 portion
    As before think Faug over Gaug ( D# on off beats

    DACFEC.BD#GFC#A

    Now we have the G7 portion of the melody.
    Let's make the first portion Cmaj7/
    Lead nicely into the A7 which comes after it .
    But also keep in mind the G7 which comes before it.

    EGCBEC.AFC#D#GBC#A.DACFEC.BD#GFC#A

    There is our Cmaj7/ A7/ Dmin7/ G7

    We can slightly change around things if we want for the second portion
    Emin7/ A7/ Dmin7/G7
    But we don't have to, we can simply repeat our melody twice to have some repetition in a good sense. ( Maybe changing couple tiny parts second time through)

    In summary we looked a the Key of C major a
    Common 1625,3625 progression .
    We took the 2 dominant chords A7 and G7
    And then, using the previous information about the symmetrical wholetone scale which connects dominant chords a wholetone apart ,
    We used that information to think of and use
    Faug and Gaug as the basis for A7 and G7
    ( While being careful the #5ths on the beat)
    We used this to create the melody for them 2 chords to be able to move the melody in more musical way .
    Finally we added in the other 2 chords to complete the whole progression , by constructing their melodies to make sense with the melodies which came from the Faug Gaug which we began with.
    ( We made sure at the point of chord changes the melodies are seamless and represent the resolutions well.)
     
  19. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Secrets of the Wholetone scale.

    We looked at G wholetone

    G A B C# D# F G

    We seen how we can make this
    GBD#FAC# ( Faug over Gaug )
    13#579#11

    We can even leave out some notes
    GBFAC#
    1379#11
    GBFA
    1379

    Now we can build these chords for each note in the whole tone scale .

    GBD#FAC# ( G9#5#11
    AC#FGBD# (A9#5#11
    BD#GAC#F (B9#5#11
    C#FABD#G (C#9#5#11
    D#GBC#FA (D#9#5#11
    FAC#D#GB (F9#5#11

    Now a version with no #5
    GBFAC# ( G9#11 no 5th
    AC#GBD#( A9#11 no 5th
    BD#AC#F (B9#11 no 5th
    C#FBD#G (C#9#11 no 5th
    D#GC#FA (D#9#11 no 5th
    FAD#GB ( F9#11 no root

    Now a version with no #11
    GBFA.....(G9 no 5th
    AC#GB ( A9 no 5th
    BD#AC# ( B9 no 5th
    C#FBD# ( C#9 no 5th
    D#GC#F ( D#9 no 5th
    FAD#G ( F9 no 5th

    Now a version with no 9th.
    GBF ( G7 no 5th
    AC#G ( A7 no 5th
    BD#A ( B7 no 5th
    C#FB ( C#7 no 5th
    D#GC# (D#7 no 5th
    FAD# ( F7 no 5th.

    Now a version with no root. ( Tritones)
    BF
    C#G
    D#A
    FB
    GC#
    AD#
    BF
     
  20. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
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