The Secrets of Music. Hard to Find Info Techniques

Discussion in 'Education' started by MMJ2017, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. Beth Hart

    Beth Hart Guest

    Do you doubt that practicing and playing challenging pieces on the piano is easy?
    http://www.pianomap.com/injuries/develops.html
    Please read and gain some understanding.
     
  2. farao

    farao Rock Star

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    397
    So you joined this topic with the purpose to say that you do not find the content given in it suitable for you. Then you belittle advise and answers given to someone else because you do not understand. And then you top that off with a personal attack. Nice.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  3. farao

    farao Rock Star

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    397
    You spoke of praciticing until your hands and fingers cramp up as something that ought to give you creedence, which it does not do. It is just a sign that you have had poor teachers that did not stop you before this happened.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  4. metaller

    metaller Audiosexual

    Joined:
    May 28, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    524
    Location:
    Persia
    OK. I just found this now. Wanted to add something.

    I have seen many people that are thaught music from their childhood. If someone practices and studies music for such longtime, they will find their way, unless they lack the talent. If you have not found your way after 14 years of studying and practicing, something is wrong.
    Playing an etude with a tempo of 300 doesn't mean anything. Music is about creating and expressing ideas. Not copying others.
    Most important tools for creating and expressing ideas are music knowledge, instrument playing skills, and talent.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • List
  5. Beth Hart

    Beth Hart Guest

    I don't understand your anger towards me. I find the lengthy diatribes in print here to be nonsense. I am allowed to have my views and express them, am I not? Is that not the very essence of a forum? Should one dissenting voice be silenced because it somehow displeases you? Many people here have welcomed me. But there is a core group connected to this topic that is frankly aggressive, bordering on protecting their messiah with fascist stylised put downs. Why do you become so angry if anybody disagrees? You are like the American far right I read about. Do you have a dislike for women? Is my being a girl in a boys club disturbing the cozy little self congratulatory ensemble you had going?
     
  6. Beth Hart

    Beth Hart Guest

    Wow! Your knowledge is endless. Now I understand that playing Chopin "doesn't mean anything" and that copying others, like Beethoven is not what music is about. Great! We can just throw 300 years of music history out the window because it serves no purpose. You really must publish your ideas.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  7. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Lol

    C#min7b5, F#7, Bmin6 Bmin6,Emin7,A7,D6,D6
    iimin7b5...V7b9.Imin6..iimin6..V7..Imaj6..Imaj6.

    Try again mofo

    The structure of the song is a cadence of the B minor
    In D major ,B relative minor key and D major cadence
    ii V I, and ii V I of dmajor

    The choice of what's recorded and played is just stripped down B minor cadence .


    Yawn.


    It's actually a good track to build more music upon
    I like it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  8. metaller

    metaller Audiosexual

    Joined:
    May 28, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    524
    Location:
    Persia
    Well, you don't get the point. The amazing pieces of Chopin and Beethoven don't add anything to you. Best case you are just a player that has wasted her time copying others and now is seeking improvising skills in forums which mostly comes from the talent and open-minded practicing.

    One thing I love about Jazz is that they are much more open-minded than Classical musicians. The professor plays with its students in a Jam session in a bar for free. And, that's why he is a walking music production machine.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  9. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Of course playing Chopin " means something" ( just not quite what you think it means ...)
    Beethoven is fantastic love him.
    No we don't throw it away .
    ( We follow history all the way through and see what advancements come over time and appreciate the whole of the history to the present. :)

    You see Chopin and Beethoven
    Where studying and figuring out music .
    However they never quite made it here
    .


    That would take years and study by thousands people's totality of knowledge to eventually arrive here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  10. farao

    farao Rock Star

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    397
    Disagreing is one thing. Personal insults is another altogether. And for you to call arguments nonsense without reason is not that productive. You are coming here seeking advice you say, well if one ”teacher” here does not suit you, simply ask someone else for productive dialog instead of being hostile towards someone actually trying to help the best he can in a topic that others might enjoy. noone is forcing this topic on you,and if you find it nonsensical, why are you still in it? Only to give voice to your dislike?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  11. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Did you discover the " eject" button as well?
    Yes,

    Because we ALL know how
    Ignorance leads to understanding not misunderstanding right?
    ( Do we know that?.
    Nah we know the opposite.)
    Ignorance equals misunderstanding.
    And misunderstanding leads to every horrible thing
    Humankind has done.)

    Every human rights violation is due to willful ignorance leading to misuderstanding .
    ( So blissful right?)


    Sure, there are plenty of willfully ignorant people on this planet .
    ( Not sure how that is bliss though?)
    It just means you know Jack shit and are a poser. A fake and an imposter . Pretending through life.
    Fake it until you make it mentally .
    (
    Not YOU , I'm speaking about the willfully ignorant
    In life)
    I mean this is some 1st grade level sh*t

    ( Don't we try prevent our children and neices from being willfully ignorant? We try raise kids to have knowledge and reduce misunderstanding?
    Bumping up against reality with a misunderstanding .reality is going to beat you down and win.)
    I thought this entire philosophical topic related to knowledge vs ignorance was solved during the enlightenment .....shrugs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2019
  12. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,235
    Likes Received:
    980
    So, MMJ2017, you spend page after page after page, pretending that you know what you're talking about. And you have systematically declined several people's invitations to 'demonstrate actual knowledge' rather than 'present half-baked theory'.

    And then the comedy show finally appears, by accident, and it is an overdue classic exposure of your ignorance.

    [1] @lasteno offered you an amazingly simple three chord song, not as a music theory test, but as a reminder that beautiful songs can be very simple. (Thank you lasteno :))

    [2] You decided to trivialise the song by showing how it's just a blah blah blah bit of your precious cadence theory.

    [3] and then you show off (again) with yet another typically boring example of your pretentious phoney-superior analysis.

    [4][ AND YOU SCREW UP YOUR ANALYSIS COMPLETELY:rofl::rofl:
    Even for this trivially easy three chord song, you demonstrate that you Can't actually do it!

    You have exposed what everyone here already suspects, that when it's time to actually apply your alleged knowledge, you can NOT apply it correctly to even something as simple as this 3-chord example.

    The actual chords are simple - it is genuinely just three chords [A Major, E7, B minor]
    That IS the analysis done and dusted. Even a complete beginner with a guitar could have figured that out in two minutes or less.

    But instead of this obvious simple analysis, this is what you wrote...

    C#min7b5, F#7, Bmin6 Bmin6,Emin7,A7,D6,D6
    iimin7b5...V7b9.Imin6..iimin6..V7..Imaj6..Imaj6.

    AND ALL OF THAT IS JUST BULLCRAP

    But let's actually go down the road that you so pretentiously pretend to follow...
    Let's take the analysis further and spell out the actual tonality that you clearly cannot actually hear!

    The song has its tonality focussed on B Minor That's the really trivial bit - even you got that bit right.

    But then you said this (garbage again)
    The structure of the song is a cadence of the B minor
    In D major ,B relative minor key and D major cadence
    ii V I, and ii V I of dmajor

    Claiming that this is in D Major or related B Minor is ignorance of the highest order.

    The tonality is actually B Dorian, i.e., the same notes as A Ionian
    So if you want to anchor it to a major key it is A Major
    It is definitely NOT D Major as you ridiculously claim.


    At a push (but for no good reason) you could label the tonality as D Lydian
    Surely, you remember that word "Lydian".
    It's that word you have trotted out a million times in this forum, pretending you know what it meant. But for all the times you've bragged about spelling a Lydian scale, when an example hits your ears you totally failed to recognise it!

    You said... "ii V I of dmajor"
    If that was true the chords would be E minor, A7 and D Major (and it's nothing like that!)

    If you then try to twist it to B natural minor (B Aeolian) you have to go through stupid hoops to borrow notes from the melodic minor scale to explain the altered E minor to E7. You would pointlessly go through hoops changing a G natural note to a G# and for what reason?
    Just to cover up the fact that you haven't any practical familiarity with a bleeding obvious B Dorian mode.

    This analysis was way below 'MUSIC THEORY 101' and you failed the test miserably.
    You have exposed yourself as a hands-off bullcrap merchant with NO hands-on practical skills at all.
    Presenting all your theory badly is one crime that bores everyone to death, but failing hopelessly to analyse the simplest example of a three chord song condemns your pretentious drivel to the scrap heap where it belongs.
     
    • Love it! Love it! x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  13. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Thank you so much for just saying what you just did! Lol I invite anyone to look at the facts very closely . This is demonstrably showing how little you know despite your claims of all those years of music training.
    Look closer think clearer about what I posted and what it actually means .
    Then read through and correct yourself before you expose yourself . Lol

    This is a classic case person who knows a couple bits And peices of music theory and pretends the rest . You want to come in scream accusations .
    Your ignorance is exposing yourself in a way you are unaware of .you can't pretend yourself out of that box
    You put yourself in.

    Then you go on to ask questions about the inner structure of
    C#min7b5,F#7,Bmin6,Emin7,A7,D6

    If you saying you do not understand this aspect of how music works, why are you approaching your entire comment the way you are ?

    Basically you are behaving in a cowardly hide behind an anonymous username mentality .
    Since YOU have yet to understand these aspects of music . You behave with belegerence .
    You just need some rainbow polish for them clown shoes you are wearing fine sir.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  14. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,235
    Likes Received:
    980
    You can't hide your ignorance by vague claims of being right backed up by grotesque parades of indignation.
    You've played that bankrupt hand too often already.

    You have to go through my analysis step by step and explicitly identify every fault - if you can find any!

    I exposed your bogus analysis step by step. If you want to show some integrity you need to do the same.
    You need to go step by step and identify what you think the faults are. But I do mean step by step, line by line.
    No vague bullcrap remarks like you instantly resorted to above.
    You are scared to do that because you KNOW you will dig yourself into a deeper hole than you have already dug.

    For anyone else that feels this gets too technical, try this simple test...
    You can simply play an A Major scale over every chord in this three chord song because that IS the correct tonality.
    But of course it will help if you play that A Major scale from B to B as in B Dorian mode because the home key is B Dorian
    Any attempt MMJ tries to make to excuse his pathetic D Major analysis will fail hopelessly.
    And he will now bullcrap and bullcrap instead of facing up to his faults.
    Pathetic and laughable
    ---
    I think I will now retire for a while and watch MMJ fill up 30 pages of utter nonsense designed to deflect everyone away from reading this page that has exposed his inept level of analysis.
    :winker:
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Love it! Love it! x 1
    • List
  15. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    1.
    You haven't EVEN gone through the material I present in my threads which was already explained 50 times how it works before this situation even came up.( There is your" line by line "homie)
    2.after screaming you ask why a V7 would preceed a Imin6 chord?
    Why would you use harmonic minor inside a context of harmony ?
    V7 going to Imin6?
    I mean if you are just that lazy it's no wonder why you make all these bizzarre assumptions which lead to accusations . You don't some of the basic peices how music works like why a V7 to Imin6
    Why would the V7 chord borrow from the harmonic minor in any instance of the structure of HARMONY?
    this is the perfect demonstration .
    The reason why I make these threads .
    You have all these people running around with a few bits and pieces of scrap music theory.
    Entirely ignorant about how music itself works.
    Then you get some nobody user showing up to a popular thread to trolls it because " oh, I don't get how that works , so instead of learning how it works I'll take my music of the gaps knowledge and force reality to fit my broken fragmented understanding ."
    Not a way to run naked blindfolded backwards through life my friend.
    Usually somone would try and learn to fill in their gaps . Not run around expressing impotent rage .
    I want you to really think closely about the song .

    I'm going to post something for you soon my friend .
     
  16. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    The way music works broken down simple way .
    ( While still describing music itself)
    The first thing is WHAT a key IS.
    Start with key of c because it is easier at first .
    You have C major / A relative minor
    C D E F G A B C

    A key means a connection between a major and a minor center.
    In this case C major and A minor .
    ( The C major is the focus, the A minor is the focus

    Let's look at the chords in this key .
    1.CEGB
    2.DFAC
    3.EGBD
    4.FACE
    5.GBDF
    6.ACEG
    7.BDFA.

    The expansion of ANY chord is to create a subdominant function then dominant function then relax to home ( chord itself)
    It makes it so you tell a story .

    DFAC 2 chord, GBDF V chord CEGA 1 chord
    iimin7...............V7 ( it has B&F tritone) I6....
    That is 3 of our chords in the key and how they are used let's look at A minor center focused.

    Bmin7b5....E7.....Amin6
    iimin7b5...V7..(G#&D tritone) imin6 (ACEF#)
    Now we have 6 of our chords out of 7 and how they work .
    Note about E7 EG#BD
    When using A.minor scale as harmony you turn G to G# so you get the tritone ( tritone resolves to home Amin)
    When using C major as center the Emin7 EGBD is used because iiiEmin7EGBD is a substitution for Cmaj CEGB.
    Note about why we use Cmaj6 CEGA instead of Cmaj7 CEGB the F&B tritone contained with G7 our dominant resolves opposite directions F resolves down to E of Cmaj , B resolves up to C of Cmaj.
    If we use the Cmaj7 CEGB the B does not resolve and the V7 chord to I becomes slightly weaker .
    C6 CEGA is stronger resolution , as well as having a better set of inversions .( Dmin7,G#dim7,C6) inversions for scale of chords.

    Now we have seen 6 out of 7 chords in the key there is one final chord left 4.FMaj7 FACE
    It has 3 chords before it 3 chords after it .
    This is called the " link"
    It is WHY c major cadence and A minor cadence are connected .
    Fmaj7 is at unity with those two cadences
    (It means you can play both c major cadence And a minor cadence " over top of " a steadily timing Fmaj7 chord and nothing clashes .FmAj is compatible with all 7 chords no clashing )
    From the minor perspective of A min / c relative major .
    4.Dmin7 works same way . Both cadences are at unity with Dmin7 ringing out on bottom Dmin7 on bottom does not clash with the c major cadence and a minor cadences playing out over top of it ringing.

    Conclusions.
    We have seen c major key all 7 of it's chords , how all the chords work and the difference functions they all have .
    Finally we have seen what a key actually is and what components make it such.
    Lastly we can use this information of how a key really works .
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    • List
  17. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Part II of how a key works

    Key of C major

    Bmin7b5,E7,Amin6 ( in cadence
    Then c major cadence ) dmin7,G7,C6
    You connect the two for the whole key

    Bmin7b5,E7,Amin6,Dmin7,G7,C6

    Now that is the structure over top either 4.FACE or 4.DFAC as the link

    We have the root notes resolving down a cycle of fourths
    BEADGCF

    However the first substitution for a dominant chord is called the tritone substitution using the guide tones 3rd and b7th ex in G7 gbdf
    If we create a dominant chord a tritone away from G7 we get C#7 C#FG#B
    Let's do this for both our V7 chords and rewrite our key structure.

    Bmin7b5,A#7,Amin6,Dmin7,C#7,C6

    Now instead of resolving down by cycle if fourths our structure is resolving down by semi tone .


    Now both of these progressions are consonante over top of our links .4.FACE ( c major and 4.DFAC of Amin.

    Practice sounding both progressions ( resolving down by fourths and resolving down by semitones over top of both 4.Fmaj7 and 4.Dmin7.


    Secret extras!

    Now what this means is that if a song is say D Dorian This means both these structures play out in unity in upper register. ( Resolving down fourths and resolving down halfsteps .
    It AlSO means if a song is say Flydian the same holds true the structure with play out over top of Fmaj7 in UNITY.( By descending fourths or semitones )

    Last words.
    This presented information was in the key of C major and relative A min however it works
    Exactly the same for All keys!
    If you belive a certain so g is X Dorian or X Lydian ( or you want to write one (
    Find what key that is . The information is applicable .
     
  18. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Part III

    What scales do we use for the chords in our structure defined by the key?

    So in the key of c major a relative minor our structure is

    Bmin7b5,E7b9,Amin6,Dmin,G7,C6

    Second one
    Bmin7b5,A#7,Amin6,Dmin7,C#7,C6


    To create a scale to fit correctly with any chord ( on the strong beats )
    You take 135 and add a note wholetone above the 135.
    So
    Bmin7b5 BDFA
    ................135
    C# E G
    The scale becomes
    BC#DEFGA ( locrian #9)

    What about E7?
    E7.EG#BD
    ......135
    F# A# C#
    The scale becomes
    EF#G#A#BC#D ( E Lydian dominant)
    What about Aminmaj ACEG#
    ..,..............................1357
    B D F#
    The scale becomes ABCDEF#G# ( A melodic minor

    What about Dmin7 DFAC
    EGB
    So
    DEFGABC ( D Dorian

    What about G7 GBDF
    AC#E
    So GABC#DEFG. ( G Lydian dominant

    What about C maj7 CEGB
    DF#A
    So CDEF#GABC ( C Lydian


    We use these scales over the chords on the beat however on the " off " beat you can use the entire chromatic scale for each chord.

    This method gives you the most options possible .
     
  19. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Part IV
    So we have the structure of a key how the chords contained inside of it work and the scales
    To use over top of the chords.

    Why those scales on the beat and the chromatic scale off the beats?

    Well, you have strong beats and weak beats .
    If you are doing day 4/4 pattern weak beats on 3 and 4 strong beats on 1 and 2.
    Say you have 3/4 you could have strong beat on 1 weak beats on 2 and 3
    There is a lot of ways to decide on your rhythms a ll the way up to complex ones .
    Whatever you decide you will have weak beats starting off then weak beats before it starts over on another strong beat .

    If we look at our structure when we were in key of c major a relative minor ( the descending chromatic motion ) where we used tritone substitution

    We get

    Bmin7b5,A#7,Amin6,Dmin7,C#7,C6

    Let's zoom into C6 and it's surroundings

    C#7,C6,Bmin7b5
    We have C# C B
    We can look at it as any chord has dominant or tension semi tone below or above ( common wholetone Above )

    Say Dmin7 . What is the cadence of this chord?
    Emin7b5, A7b9,Dmin6

    The C# a semitone below the root D note is the 3rd of the Dmin7 s dominant chord A7b9.

    Now what is the tritone substitute for A7?
    D#7 .
    So A7 is AC#EG
    D#7 is D#G A# C#

    Now we can see by taking any chord which exists.
    The semitone below it and Above are notes contained in the 2 dominant chords which belongs to the cadence of the original chord.
    This is one way we end up having all 12 notes of the chromatic scale usable in every key.

    You can have the V7 chord ( which is a part of the cadence ) of any chord come in on the off beat right before the " on beat" where you play the chord.
    This means you have the chromatic notes available to you .
    ( Keep in mind it has to make musical sense to use it right you can hear it if it does make sense by altering between your V7 to I and the semitones below and above to root go back and forth between those to hear what is actually happening )
     
  20. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,235
    Likes Received:
    980
    And yet another stunning display of MMJ musical ignorance.
    Even after I have very clearly explained to you how your analysis was completely wrong...
    You still can't see it, and you are still making totally ridiculous mistakes
    and you are deliberately avoiding focussing on where those mistakes are
    and you are desperately spewing out more nonsense as a smoke screen to hide the failed analysis.

    The most hilarious screw up is this one...
    You keep on saying that I don't understand how to analyse a chord change like [V7 -> Imin6]
    and then even funnier, you try to tell me that I don't understand how to extend this into a [ii -> V7 -> Imin6] sequence
    Now read carefully...
    How many more times do I have to tell you that this simple three chord song DOES NOT CONTAIN a [V7 -> Imin6] chord change anywhere at all! and it certainly does not contain a classic [ii -> V -> I] chord sequence either!

    So, as a metaphor...
    When you've finished telling me (badly) that I don't understand how your shoddy boat works perhaps you could recognise that we're analysing a car here - there is no boat!
    But of course that does mean you need to actually open your eyes and even your EARS! (gosh - what a radical suggestion)

    LISTEN, and LOOK again... AT THE SONG - AT THE MUSIC (instead of at your own failed analysis)
    The actual real world chords, that every sane musician in the world would recognise, are these... [A Major, E Major, B minor]
    Those ARE the simplest basics, (mathematically undeniable) before we get around to considering interesting decorations added by vocal melodies etc. e.g., be prepared to hear vocals embellishing 'A Major' to 'A Major7', etc.
    (Also note: 'E Major' versus 'E7' - is subtle in this song, so more about that below)

    Those exact three chords, in this song, are 'in the key of A Major'. brute fact!
    The song is absolutely not in key of D Major or relative B Minor from your wildly inaccurate analysis

    Side note: That's the simplest way of describing it, but if you want to get more theoretical you could say that the diatonic tonality of the song can be identified as A Ionian, but use any modal label as appropriate. In this case 'B Dorian' mode would be just fine, because the song does target B minor as its home chord and B Dorian minor is therefore an obvious choice for labelling our diatonic tonality.

    But hey, let's NOT get dragged into modal theory, let's just keep it really simple and say (accurately) that
    - This song is 'in the key of A Major'.
    - All three chords from the song - [A Major, E Major, B minor] - 'do belong perfectly' to the key of A Major.
    - Every note in each of these chords is found in the A Major scale.
    Now how many more ways of saying the above do I need to provide?
    Well, just one more, 'the most important one', the one that you seem to know nothing about - 'PLAY IT AND LISTEN!'
    Play the song and improvise using A Major scale over all three chords. Note how well it fits!
    If you can't just HEAR that this is the correct tonality then you are wasting your time trying to be any kind of musician.

    Back to theory...(the basics)
    Let's now use a conventional 'roman numeral' numbering system and label these three chords in a way that is useful for any key rather than just key of A Major.

    Chord: A Major = I (the 'one' chord - Major chord built on the '1st note' of a Major scale)
    Chord: E7 = V (the 'five' chord - Dominant chord built on the '5th note' of a Major scale)
    Chord: B minor = ii (the 'two' chord - minor chord built on the '2nd note' of a Major scale)

    (Side note: Why I'm using E Major and E7 interchangeably here. In key A Major, the E major just IS a V chord and is therefore inevitably a Dominant chord. BUT the song does downplay that a lot because they don't want the Dominant 7 feel (not a cadence!). You're more likely to hear vocals singing phrases using note C# rather than D so they're avoiding the Dominant 7 role for the E Major and treating it more like Emaj6. I'll do the same here and just call it E Major for simplicity.)

    And so the actual chord sequence [A Major, E Major, B minor] can now be written symbolically as [I, V, ii]
    That's handy if I want to change key.
    For example...
    In key of A Major, the [I, V, ii] chord sequence is [A Major, E Major, B minor]
    and if want to transpose down a tone to key of G Major
    In key of G Major, the same [I, V, ii] chord sequence is now [G Major, D Major, A minor]
    but note the sequence can always be described as [I, V, ii] in any key! a very convenient notation.

    All of this is 'very basic stuff'. And that is why I bothered to describe it here, because dealing with these basics is where MMJ's inept failed analysis really exposed his practical musical ignorance.

    MMJ... Ask yourself - as a 'so-called' musician...
    Why could you not hear (after just 20 seconds, 1st 8 bars of the song) that the chord sequence is [I, V, ii]
    Why could you not hear (after just 20 seconds) that this is absolutely NOT a cadence
    A cadence would be [ii, V, I] and this song traverses the circle of fifths in the THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION, the song uses [I, V, ii]

    Really, you couldn't just hear that???? and save yourself from all the embarrassing faulty analysis??
    Are you so musically deaf that you couldn't even hear that this song was the opposite of a cadence?
    The song played the same three chords about a million times, you had plenty of chances to HEAR the obvious!
    I really do value music theory, but ask yourself... what is the point of describing cadences in dozens of pages if you can't even recognise them with your ears? or if you think cadences are there when they are not?

    One of the obvious charms of this song is that it manages to repeat the same three chords forever for the whole song.
    If it was a cadence, being repeated over and over, we would probably hate it, it would sound like it was forever converging and resolving, and then abruptly resuming. But because it is more like an anti-cadence, it keeps on opening up, it is always diverging, and remaining unresolved, and so our brains welcome each repetition. This is obvious stuff to a 'real listener' but I guess you still have a very long way to go to figure out what a real listener actually does.

    If you actually 'knew the musical landscape' instead of just fiddling around with your poor quality maps of that landscape, you would just 'listen' and 'immediately recognise' that very familiar [I, V, ii] chord sequence.

    Good musicians would do this and play along comfortably, even if they had no idea what [I, V, ii] on your map actually meant.
    I guarantee that many wonderful musicians would improvise effortlessly and beautifully over this song without understanding any of the theory that this thread is discussing! They have 'real knowledge of the musical landscape' and that is infinitely more valuable than 'your poor knowledge of your shoddy maps'.

    BUT because YOU can't do this, you have to resort to your same old cliched scruffy analysis.
    (and that is a very a poor substitute for 'knowing the musical landscape').

    And look what a comedy of errors it has produced.
    You are still desperately trying to squeeze the anti-cadence from the song into your mathematical formula for a cadence
    (it's just bizarre - it's like you are trying to make a car float like a boat)

    You are trying to squeeze this [I, V, ii] sequence (THE REAL SEQUENCE FROM THE SONG) into its exact theoretical opposite.
    A [ii, V, I] sequence does not exist in this song, but in your pathetically inaccurate analysis you still think it's there.
    This is called being delusional or inept - take your pick!

    And then you have the nerve to try again and again to explain to me how to understand your failed analysis [V7 -> Imin6]
    You completely fail to notice that in your failed [V7 -> Imin6] analysis the chords would have to be [F#7 -> Bmin6]
    which we do not have in this song - we have [E7 -> Bmin] which is [V7 -> iimin] and NOT [V7 -> Imin]
    You don't even notice that your own analysis looks at the actual E Major chord in the song and mistakenly treats it as an F#7
    (and to put the subtlety back, I stopped calling it E7 and called it the simpler E Major, because as discussed above, there is no cadence here, we don't need the Dominant 7th feel at all!)

    I could go on, but by this time, if a student couldn't grasp the obvious I would be inclined to tell them to try a different hobby.

    I seriously doubt if it's possible to invent a more incorrect analysis than the rubbish MMJ provided for this simple song.

    --

    and now - here we will go again - MMJ will now plaster this thread with another dozen pages of half-baked shoddy notes on his poor interpretations of (what should be wonderful) music theory, all just in a desperate attempt to deflect readers from finding this page exposing his ignorance.

    SAD! SAD! and SAD!

    but worse than that - it is totally misleading for enthusiastic beginners that might come here actually wanting to learn!
    That should qualify as some kind of thought crime for anyone that wants their education to be high quality.

    Think about this seriously....

    Given one of the simplest possible 'three chord' songs...
    - our so-called guru cannot just 'hear' what those chords are;
    - our so called guru cannot identify those chords correctly;
    - our so called guru cannot analyse those chords correctly;
    - and even after a correct solution is provided, our so-called guru cannot see or admit that he screwed up the analysis
    - our so-called guru just wants to hide his errors and pretend he is infallible

    What kind of music educator is that!!!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
Loading...
Similar Threads - Secrets Music Hard Forum Date
Music theory secrets Education May 28, 2017
The Secrets of Dance Music Production Education Feb 19, 2017
creativeLIVE unlocks music industry secrets with new audio channel Education Aug 8, 2013
AnalogXAi 14 x Series 2 Master Bus Secrets Software News Dec 16, 2023
Psychoacoustic Secrets For Mixing - 23/12/22 Working with Sound Dec 23, 2022
Loading...