The Secrets of Music. Hard to Find Info Techniques

Discussion in 'Education' started by MMJ2017, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    One of the best musicians from my country doesn't know the names of the notes or any theory - Ivo Papazov. He won the BBC's Radio3 World Music Awards 12 years ago. I would say that his style of improvisation is pretty complex - often playing different mode every 2 bars and mixing Western, Balkan and Oriental scales.
    About the Rick Beato's videos - I've watched some of them and his way of explaining elementary stuff is often overcomplicated, because of his jazz background (also the names of some of the chords are his own invention or come from his jazz teachers). He sometimes talks about Lydian chord, but Lydian chord is something else.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_chord
    I found the jazz theory amusing - they are simplifying so much stuff labeling it with 1 name while ignoring what in practice are they playing (the various extended augmented and diminished chords which have different names and functions - and can't actually be notated correctly using 12et - the dom7#9 as heard in many funk, rnb, hip-hop(sampled) chord is played by the brass players with augmented second and pure major 3 and just m7, not with the ET m3, M3 and m7 ) and inventing some systems of substitution that exist only in their mind and are probably ok for composing, but the listener doesn't hear the sub of sub of sub etc, but smooth voice leading.
     
  2. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    I Dont know what you mean sir.


    "
    About the Rick Beato's videos - I've watched some of them and his way of explaining elementary stuff is often overcomplicated, because of his jazz background (also the names of some of the chords are his own invention or come from his jazz teachers). He sometimes talks about Lydian chord, but Lydian chord is something else.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_chord"



    I have watched every video of his never seen an instance of that at all .
    can you give specific situation and context?





    "I've watched some of them and his way of explaining elementary stuff is often overcomplicated,"





    i have only seen the opposite, that is, him explaining something as simple as it actually exists in the language of music.






    "
    He sometimes talks about Lydian chord, but Lydian chord is something else.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_chord"

    that is the lydian he was talking about exactly.











    I have only seen him refer to Lydian in the way it exists ,can you give a specific example of when that happened?




    "
    I found the jazz theory amusing - they are simplifying so much stuff labeling it with 1 name while ignoring what in practice are they playing (the various extended augmented and diminished chords which have different names and functions - and can't actually be notated correctly using 12et - the dom7#9 as heard in many funk, rnb, hip-hop(sampled) chord is played by the brass players with augmented second and pure major 3 and just m7, not with the ET m3, M3 and m7 ) and inventing some systems of substitution that exist only in their mind and are probably ok for composing, but the listener doesn't hear the sub of sub of sub etc, but smooth voice leading.[/QUOTE]"


    "I found the jazz theory amusing - they are simplifying so much stuff labeling it with 1 name while ignoring what in practice are they playing (the various extended augmented and diminished chords which have different names and functions"

    jazz theory is not a separete music theory it is the continuation of western music theory making a whole, and full music theory ( the advanced , rest of music theory people didnt uncover yet )


    I dont understand this entire paragraph, can you expand upon it more please fine sir? ( i get the accusation but i never seen it happen or what situation or context it exists in can you expand on it?)

    12tone et is the only way to have 12 keys and all those complex chords.



    "and inventing some systems of substitution that exist only in their mind and are probably ok for composing, but the listener doesn't hear the sub of sub of sub etc, but smooth voice leading.[/QUOTE]""

    the substitution is built in language of music itself they didnt invent anything

    each key is a deatiled version of its single note, for example say a person wrote a whole song in the key of C major, that be just a detailed version of playing a single C note the entire time.
    now say a person play a single song in the key of c major and the key of e major. that is just a detailed way of playing 2 notes the whole time just a c note and e note the entire song.
    each key works the way single notes or chords work in the hierarchy . without 12 tone et you cant really do anything but the most simplistic of music.
    that may be fine for some application but most the time it is not , just as when we make sentences if we only had 7 words total to choose from to build a sentence it be rough to express yourself most the time, but yes sometimes you may need only 7 words to choose from and those very few times it be fine.


    "..but the listener doesn't hear the sub of sub of sub etc, but smooth voice leading.."


    i dont presume to know what people hear, do you? i know what i hear and it not matching with what you been saying here.
    i dont get what probelm you could have with 12toneet, you think the third or whatever sounds weird? raise it an octave into a drop 3 or drop 2 &4 voicing problem solved , without sacrificing 12 major keys, whole-tone diminished and other symmetrical scales that make the key relationships built from 12 keys.

    it seems you only have a partial understanding of music theory, here is a couple important advanced parts of it towards the advanced end that bring it all toegther to creat the whole language.


    http://www.javierarau.com/augmented-scale-theory/

    http://www.lydianchromaticconcept.com/images/page14.gif

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k6_1VhT1L...+Lydian+Chromatic+Concept+guitar+patterns.jpg


    http://musictheorysite.com/assets/img/circle_of_fifths_triangle.gif


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    here are some live performance that use these in totality.



    i remember when i had about 80 percent of music theory knowledge, and the other 20 percent being random gaps here and there related to the advanced parts that make it a whole language,
    i was so confused and misunderstood the same things you have fine sir. no one ever said it was easy or quick haha it def takes a commitment that last for years.
    i forever live in the mindset of being a student to music to soak up the knowledge and learn and advance everyday. ( that is what combats the frustration and difficulty of such an endevour haha)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  3. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    Wow, MMJ.
    Beato calls Lydian the CF#G triad...
    And I'm having partial understanding of the music theory?
    Your scheme above is wrong. There are 12 tonics in 12et and countless way to jump between them without pitch drifts, because of the way it's tempered and you can play whatever you want without worrying about any jazz schemes or the pre-12et tonal theories (this is true for any equal division of the octave -19, 22, 24 and 31 are "popular" choices).
    You can check all the recent Neo-Riemannian books that deal with voice leading and theory in 12et, some of them won the Wallace Berry award.
    If you don't wanna bother with advanced math or geometric figures, search youtube for explanations or lectures on normal language = MusicCorner has a video called "Smooth Chords".12tone also has a video on this topic. Scott Murphy has some videos on common film music progressions using Neo-Riemannian theory and his analyses at http://www.mtosmt.org are worth checking along with other articles by university theorists (if you are interested in atomic level dissections).
    The thing is that there are principles that are valid for any music system and they are based on acoustics, not only on certain tempered (or not) division of the octave.
    Check the pitches of a trumpet: do you think that 12et is the optimal way to play such instrument? The performer has to adjust his intonation all the time.
    http://www.tonalsoft.com/monzo/trumpet/trumpet-intonation.aspx
     
  4. tonyg0499

    tonyg0499 Platinum Record

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    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
     
  5. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    "
    Wow, MMJ.
    Beato calls Lydian the CF#G triad...
    And I'm having partial understanding of the music theory?"

    please list the exact video and min sec he did this because i bet 100 percent there was a specific context he was talking in and about.

    i dont remember him doing that, but if he did do that it would be super easy to realize this is what he meant.
    even without you showing the exact context, which makes a difference i can take that one sentence and extrapolate that he is referencing the halfsteps define the tone of a scale.
    C lydian C D E F# G A B
    1.C
    2. D
    3. E
    4. F#
    5.G
    6.A
    7.B
    ( it is obvious this is what he was describing if he misspoke while describing c lydian)

    if beato is good enough for victor wooten its good enough for me ( joke but serious in a way)


    if you have more advanced stuff to contribute im all ears and i welcome it i will check out those links you mentioned fine sir.
    yes, i think 12 tone et is the optimal way to play the trumpet, if you want to play more than modal music. if you are going to travel the circle of fiths and play the II V I, for example or play modal while traveling circle of fifths then yes how can you do it if not with 12 tone et? if your notes have different spaces between them it you cannot play the full language o f music .


    i am going through
    Neo-Riemannian Theory right this moment and so far anyway i find it useless underwhelming and monotonous to rename terms into "klang" and such for no reason. ( this is a complant i have with lydian chromatic concept as well although the lydian chromatic concept actually has value in it)
    as it continues everything it describes already exists in music theory what exactly is neo riemannian contributing? so far re-naming things that already have a name and exist . boo my friend so far at least boo indeed ( transformations by major or minor thirds in voice leading in triads already exists.) okay now they are covering material i have mentioned to you already containwithin augmented scale theory you said what pointless but obviously if is is contained in neo-blah blah-blian you dont think is pointless after all?( again it already exists so what is the point in renaming it and pretending it is new?) oh jesus, new they using compass and map terms this is retarded.
    this is embarrassing ( for them) as they are talking about augmented scale theory , but trying to pretend that they came up with it ( it is built into langauge of music itself)
    [​IMG]
    i showed this picture months ago and neo blah blah blian is just saying the same thing with its made up words and language so what value is it to memorize new words nobody you meet will ever know to communicate a concept that already has existed the entire time? none.

    we dont need to rename anything.

    lets examine this other video you mention



    the video make no sense at all ignore the roman numerals? ( the way music actually works?) ignore navigating keys? makes no sense.
    again this entire video is about augmented scale theory, the author of the video is demonstrating it but not knowing or explaining what he is actually doing and how and why it works.
    he wastes time talking about things that dont matter at all, and ignoring the things and explanations that do matter this is called "amateur level shit"

    i could make a video where i say " move your index finger to your anus , now scratch" but what exactly would i be contributing?

    now, lets actually show people the information contained within this video but this time how and exactly why it works as it does and every possible option when navigating.

    http://www.javierarau.com/augmented-scale-theory/
    all you have to do is read from very top to the very very botto of this link and you will have entire full knowledge of navigating augmented scale theory , how and why it works the way it actually does and starting from any beginning place every possible navigation in the context of all 12 tones.
    just to be clear, augmented scale theory shows you how to start at any point or note or chord and go to all 12 notes at any point and time, as it actually works in music language, it explains to you how to navigate in this way with full knowledge of music. the way music actually works.


    I want to note instruments that have the ability to vary the distance between notes, they can at any time modify 12 tone et in a specific context to have a natural 3rd or whatever they want we consider note bends and pitch shifting and all that part of expression and is valid if a person wants to do it. we see this in blues with notes in between notes we see it with fretless string instruments, we see it with t he voice all over so this is a valid form of expression just as a slide or bend would be , we use 12 tone equal temperament as a starting point , when it comes to a human expressing themselves in music they have every option in the world.


    The value of music theory is to give a person the ability to express themselves in any way they are seeking to, by having the underlining picture of the language of music at their finger tips. if we offshoot and rename the same terms we are doing the opposite of that.
    To the degree a person can see the entire picture of music the order it works in the inner relationships and details but , from the perspective of the entire picture of it, then that person now has the ability to start from any note or chord move to another place and instantly know everything they could do next every option ( they will decide to choose what is next based on the inner emotion they are trying to portray)
    everything at all times exists within a specific context. for the writing musician, each decision they make in a moment of time is a specific context with a larger goal in mind.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  6. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    But, my friend, keys don't exist in 12et. Read this again, then read some tuning theory, if you don't belive me. That's why the neo-riemannian theory (which is backed by serious math that of course you will find in the books, but not in popular youtube videos) or your augmented theory is useful (if you try to apply your augmented chops in JI, you will hear pitch drifts). Each tempering changes the music theory that is applicable to the notes that you play. You can't explain Holst's or Britten's music with keys when it's all voice leading transformations avaliable in 12et. If they were playing 19 et or 31 et, the chord changes would have been different.
    Some older theoretists wonder why classical composers back in the day were stuck to I-IV-V. Maybe because the other progressions were sounding like shit on their harpischords or organs that were tuned to play the pure major scale. 12et allows chromatic mediants, tritone progressions and similar - these things start seeing use by people like Liszt, because he actually could play it on the piano. Play this on 16 or 17 century keyboard and you will hear out of tune progressions (which are good only for horror soundtracks these days - and back in the day there was no Hollywood)...
    Players of natural harmonic instruments have to adjust their intonation (or retune before performance) or they will produce wolf notes against 12 et synths, keyboards etc during a concert.
    If you have to think about all the possibilities in a natural key, you will have to think about more than 20 notes per key, because of the augmented and diminished variants of each note (and this is in 5-limit tuning). If you want to play the notes that Robert Johnson uses, you will need way more than 20 notes (per key).

    The same sonority is called many times Lydian chord by him in other videos analyzing film music.
    This is pitch class set 3-5...
     
  7. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    i dont know what to say to this , i guess look at the circle of fifths, listen to every song that has been written in the last 100 years, or listen to every song that has ever been on the radio for our entire history.

    the theory is not suggesting some new thing is states everything already known about but changing the language to different words. that is , the theory is "backed up" because it is music theory already and always has been.

    how can you have "pitch drifts" when every note is the same distance from each other?

    of course it does, why wouldn't it? who said it didn't? who are arguing to?

    why can't you? ( maybe you yourself cannot)

    yes we all know this , no person has argued that " if they were playing 31 notes the chord changes would be identical"

    who are these theorists that wonder that? everybody in the world understands temperament , there is a reason equal temperament was developed.

    who is saying otherwise? how are your arguing this point to?

    yes, that is because equal temperament didn't always exist, it was developed to have 12 keys which all behaved the same as another

    who do you think does not know this?

    all you need is equal temperament and instruments that can bend notes like strings and voice. do you honestly think the blues cannot be played on a standard piano?
     
  8. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    for those that argue against 12 tone equal temperament. the 12 notes and keys are identical to a 12 hour clock hanging on your wall, do you make the same arguments about time as we know it? ( that there is some problem with dividing time into 12 equal parts x 2?)
    ill post this again like i did months ago on here







    have you ever wondered why we have no problem,s with a 12 hour clock on the wall?
    becuase it is retarded to have a spiral clock . we only need a clock with 12 equal hours, and with music we need 12 equal notes to be able to have 12 keys that all react the same way as each other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  9. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    Well,
    Play for us some blues on a piano, I'm eager to hear authentic 7.11 and 17 limit bends as heard in the old blues tunes .

    " how can you have "pitch drifts" when every note is the same distance from each other?" In JI?
    How many analyses have you done of large scale orchestral compositions? I want to see your brilliant use of augmented scale theory... You are probably better than Schenker, Riemann and company that struggled to analyse anything outside of the classical theory and had to invent new concepts.
    Looking at circle of fifths and hearing some music on the radio (some "kind of local dance tune). Unfortunately I hear bVll minor to I - this is impossible in Renaissance and Early Classical tuning where your theories start (I guess people in Europe back then didn't knew the beaty of tetrachords with augmented seconds...)
    And why are you posting the 12 clock thing? The Neo-Riemann guys use modulo 12 math (aka clock math) way better than you and actually proove that their voice leading concepts and views about one chromatic scale, not circles of any kinds.
    Btw, if you want to hear why anyone would use JI, listen to some Palestrina or anything you would like in a capella version.
    You can't make any ET to sound sacred or vibrate with all the buzz of clashing overtones.
     
  10. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    Man, it's like the mega uber fight of the century or something.

    [​IMG]

    :chilling:
     
  11. Olaf

    Olaf Kapellmeister

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    It's a bit tricky indeed. Time is naturally linear, pitch is not. That's why the equal temperament, despite the name, is not really equal (that would be in term of frequencies). It's tuned to be perceived as linear to balance out the Pythagorean comma.
     
  12. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    the theory of special relativity and the theory of relativity shows us demonstrably ( and has been verified) that time is relative. time is different on earth than the satellites that generate GPS, time is different in motion then standing still, time almost stops at the horizon of a black hole. a person jogging clock is different than a person flying in a plane.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

    https://www.quora.com/Can-somebody-explain-how-time-is-relative-in-laymans-terms

    https://www.sciencealert.com/watch-the-famous-twin-paradox-of-special-relativity-explained



    now that i have established that to take 1 second is arbitrary. how ever many vibrations per second does not matter because the 1 second part does not matter , i could say the frequency of an A note is so many vibrations per 1.567456 second.

    what matters is notes are divided equally in the context of the framework of all the notes ( not ratios of a single note)
    we dont cut a pizza pie in diminishing pieces forming a spiral, we dont have the hours on a clock do it and it makes no sense to have our music that way either because the context is a framework of ALL notes. yes of course if you take one note and try to divide ratios you will get spirial becuase in the context you putting that starting note as most important but do you want music for which a single note plays for a 45 min album? no we want the ability to have ANY note important to break out into detail.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  13. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    hahahahahahahaha (coffee flies out of nose) [​IMG]






















    [​IMG]


    Let me guess 7 billion human beings consider this blues........everyone except for YOU?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  14. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    love me some cats homie.
     
  15. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    :mates:they are the best.
    Was joking but the discussion you're both having is actually an interesting one...I love that we all are so passionate about the music.
     
  16. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    yes i really enjoy talking with the gentleman and everyone else.
     
  17. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    quite a few, however i dont know what that context has to do with anything. for instance a singer using vibrato has no bearing on the temperament, a guitarist bending in a pentatonic run sequence has no bearing on the temperament. my position is not that instruments must conform to anything ( they can play whatever sounds great.) my position IS that there is absolutely no problem with equal temperament from the context of comparing what you gain to what you could consider a loss. there is no contest equal temperament has and will continue to dominate the world. at the same time though a singer can fluctuate and use vibrato and horn or a fretless bass can add whatever they like to that foundation of playing with others in equal temperament. 7 billion human beings listen to music with equal temperament. and 300 or so use their odd ball temperaments and should be able to if they enjoy it.

    people form that odd assumption about taking a single note, then looking at its harmonics or ratios that add up to make THAT note . that is a specific context,
    but then they form a false association of going from that context where a single note is important, they want to superimpose that onto ALL notes? what your ending up with is that first note being what every other note is based off, how is that for choice? you get 1 note and the rest is just harmonics of it. instead we look at the context of ALL notes and we equally divide the pie in 12 parts or how every many parts so that the person using them has choice.( yet you can still play that single note the whole time look at lot pop music) so you can still make boring simple music if you want or the most expressive complex or anything in between with equal spaced notes.
    the value that frequency per second has is ZERO there is nothing special about frequency per second it could be frequency per 3.546 sec or frequency per.04532 second the second part matter snot because we adjust how long the note rings out for. how it effects people is having notes that sound different from each other say you have 31 notes they going to be so close together as to sound like the music is standing dead still most the time. or if you have 4 notes spaced wide you will get more depth but it will seem too repetitive.

    so however many vibrations per second makes no difference the way our ears actually work is having notes spaced in a way to have enough variety and have enough of them to express one self. the best way to do that by far is equal temperament, why? because any note in equal temperament can be used to be the "main" note where the others are used as detailed chosen by the creator of the music. then you can switch to any other note at any time and have that as the "center point" where the other notes are in relationship to that one and so on, it is the only way to do this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  18. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    it is a fact that there is ZERO connection between the earth rotating around the sun (where we get our second)
    and vibrations traveling through the air. you cannot make a meaningful connection between those 2 it just does not exist. what i am saying here is someone says " oh, well with equal temperament the blah balh note is not EXACTLY blah blah frequencies per SECOND"
    who cares? there is no connection from the second to vibrations moving through air at all io could say a C note is blah blah vibrations per .9237618262372453 of a second
     
  19. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    You are hearing vibrations, you are not hearing music theories. You are hearing overtones and combinatorial tones.
    There more than enough researches done on infants, children, aduls and even animals about the effects of the different scales/tunings/ types of music. Do you have JSTOR access? If you have, you can use the search button.
    I guess you can't understand the difference between the equal and unequal tuning. In equal the notes that are produced are equal on a logarithmic scale, the actual values are unequal and distorted outside of the selected notes that are generators of the temperament. In the unequal temperaments the notes look unequal on a logarithmic scale, but in practice produce equal values in Hz.
    You can reduce all the pitches in the Western world to this sequence:
    https://oeis.org/A051037
    Left to right as ratios is utonality, right to left is otonality.
    Duplicating hexachord to generate star shaped convex figure as a gestalt pattern.
    If you are interested in some advanced music theory, Partch's book and this
    http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~larry/published_articles/divisions_of_the_tetrachord/
    could be interesting to you.
    Overtone series 1 to 16 divides any given octave in 8 equally spaced chunks and is the basis of big part the world music.
    If you divide any octave in 12 equal spaced parts, you will get

    0: 1/1 0.000000 unison, perfect prime
    1: 13/12 138.572661 tridecimal 2/3-tone
    2: 7/6 266.870906 septimal minor third
    3: 5/4 386.313714 major third
    4: 4/3 498.044999 perfect fourth
    5: 17/12 603.000409 2nd septendecimal tritone
    6: 3/2 701.955001 perfect fifth
    7: 19/12 795.558015 undevicesimal minor sixth
    8: 5/3 884.358713 major sixth, BP sixth
    9: 7/4 968.825906 harmonic seventh
    10: 11/6 1049.362941 21/4-tone, undecimal neutral seventh
    11: 23/12 1126.319346 vicesimotertial major seventh
    12: 2/1 1200.000000 octave
    Grab a calculator and do the math.
    And the blues you listed has nothing to do with any authentic blues as heard in the older recordings.
    Gerhard Kubik has many books on the authentic African music and one on the blues and the African lineage, if you are interested. There are other books on the latin rhythms and the connections with the motherlands by different authors.
    God bless the ethnomusicologists.
     
  20. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    23322332 a lot of what you said I am aware of pretty well. i am going to dig deep and look through it, please if you have access any other advanced music theory stuff i want to learn about it, thanks for your contributions fine sir im going to look through that material now.
    no matter what i am a student of music and i expect to always find new material to make my head spin haha
    about the latin stuff i hold it in very high regard thanks
    another one my fav studies is poly-rhythms vs poly-meters (both i find valuable)
    when it comes to music i have a ego in the negative digits hahaha
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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