The Secrets of Music. Hard to Find Info Techniques

Discussion in 'Education' started by MMJ2017, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    "Everyone would develop similar techniques by practicing."

    no, they wouldn't you cannot accidentally discover the way music really works as a language what you will have instead is a very simplified music like a baby the can say a couple of words vs an adult they can speak more complex and accurate and descriptive sentences.


    "Music theory is the most stupid theory in the whole world propounded by people trying to formulate anything. For an electronic producer there's no strict rule.:no:"

    only someone from the outside looking in could possibly be able to say this. it is like saying you like to talk with people, but doing it in a language that exists is stupid, it is much better to invent words they dont know and arrange them in an order they are unaware of. that is what you are literally saying.


    "For an electronic producer there's no strict rule."

    that is the misunderstanding, music theory is not rules to follow it is how music works, what you mean by the word "music" sure you can have zero knowledge of how music works and still create the most simplistic primitive couple notes hear and there type thing but you can never accidentally build a sky scrapper from iron beams, and you cannot accidentally create the most brilliant sophisticated music that is crafted with the entirety of the language.

    i love to have a challenge with you , you craft what you think is the most amazing track based on no knowledge of music theory and i will spend 10 mins making it 10x better by dealing with the way music actually works. we could go 10 out of 10 , the topic can be " does the knowledge of music theory (the way music actually works) always,100 percent make a song better than without it?
     
  2. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    watch these video and tell me someone can accidentally create music this good (by "good"i dont mean the sound of the instruments but he structure of the music)starting off with zero knowledge of music theory (how music actually works)





    start at 23:30 and listen that song picture in your head changing the sound to any instrument you want and making any beat you want for the drums with the underlining structure identical as original



     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  3. foster911

    foster911 Guest

    One year later, if I would not be labeled "R.I.P foster911", I'll here to hear your new attitudes towards those theories.:yes:

    I was thinking like you but I finally choose this below sentence as my signature.
     
  4. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    music theory is NOT a restriction of what you cannot do, it is showing you the millions of things you can do and how,
    music theory is about giving you infinite choices.

    not knowing music music theory means you dont know any of your millions of choices and you are restricted because of it.
    you can only plink a couple notes that shape basic root and fifth normally primitive rhytm and melofy and not only only playing in one key without music thoey you mostly play only a couple chords! ( and just the root and fifth)
     
  5. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    there is a problem with what you are saying though, you cannot go from understanding the way that music actually works, to having view on it that can only come from not knowing how it works

    imagine a guy studies 10 years to build sky scrapper an engineer, then all of a sudden he changed his view " engineering is just stupid rules to follow, im going to build sky scrappers MY way, where i dont have any rules to follow"

    it is NOT that "engineering education" is rules to follow in other words , restrictions set on you. it is the exact opposite of restrictions, it is teaching you the infinite ways you can build things based on the way reality actually works the strength of materials how they are joined the mathematics of how the structure shapes can hold weight etc. music theory is identical it is infinite options for the musician
    music existed before you or I were born, the way it actually works existed before we were born, having the knowledge of a language means you can communicate, not having knowledge of language means your uttering sounds nobody but you understands or cares about.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  6. foster911

    foster911 Guest

    If you had time please read my threads and also people' comments on them. You can do a work with unlimited possible ways. I was a bigoted and mulish person on my thoughts but after messing around in my DAW, my tendency for any rule, theory, law or whatever you call it, dramatically decreased.:yes:
     
  7. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    i really like talking with you im just trying to bring up a aspect in the conversation that is important and you have brought up some important aspects as well, i really like you and speaking with you fine sir.
     
  8. Von_Steyr

    Von_Steyr Guest

    @foster911 aint no fine sir, man. We found him wandering on the streets and brought him here.
     
  9. ia

    ia Producer

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    Yes, I need to know how to compose beautiful music like that
     
  10. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    here you go fine sir
    https://www.youtube.com/user/pegzch/search?query=film
    this list of videos will cover every aspect your seeking in that particular area my friend!

    here a good one to begin with



    this precedes that one JIC your interested

     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  11. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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  12. Downlo

    Downlo Kapellmeister

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    FIrst let me say i'm seriously doubting my google and youtube skills. I almost never find videos this good. So thanks for that.
    I'd love to hear your thoughts on the following.

    I've worked with some musicians who studied at the conservatory here in Amsterdam. These guys had awesome playing skills. I could whistle a melody and they would play it. It was fantastic.
    Some of these guys had just recently graduated and offered to help me to play some things i could not at the time.
    But when i asked them to improvise they played like crap. They simply could not think of anything to play.

    These guys went on to make an album for themselves and asked me to mix it. When they sent me their recordings i was shocked to find they were completely out of time and even of key sometimes. 3 out of six of them studied music.

    Some time after that i met a guy who has been playing piano (Jazz) for almost 20 years, also studied at the conservatory.
    He came to my house so we could compose/ play new material for an upcoming album.
    I let him do his thing, cuz he's the man with experience and education. But he absolutley had no idea what and how to play. He could not think of a single melody. In his head he knew what genre or style he wanted. But nothing came out.
    We or rather he was stuck like that on multiple sessions spread out over several weeks.

    I can come up with new original melodies all day long but i'm often stuck. The lack of knowledge and playing skills hold me back. They could play everything but could not think of anything.

    What are your thoughts on this?
    (btw i've seen and heard these guys play live. They are fantastic once they know what to play. This is not an attempt to diss them or the fact they had this amazing education.)
     
  13. trakunb

    trakunb Newbie

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    Best thread ever! I have a question, what is it with this song , everytime i start listening to it it makes me listening like 100 times again, and i'm not even a fan of this kind of music.
     
  14. 23322332

    23322332 Platinum Record

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    Playing and composing are different skill.
    If you want to play, you have to practice (especially the virtuoso articulations that can give life even to cliche motives).
    If you want to compose, you have to study the music of others, to practice writing melodies or just daydream something and if you have done enough ear training practice, you should know what are you hearing in your head.
     
  15. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    what people go to school for has nothing to do with anything.
    what does have to with it ,is having your brain understand the language of music, coupled with the drive and inspiration to use it.


    a person could go to school and not pay attention, or have bad curriculum bad teacher , or any number of factors where the end result is their brain not knowing the language of music. in other cases a person can self study and master it. on average though people that can go to school for it absorb decent amount of basic knowledge of the language and don't understand very much , but enough to do quite a bit with.

    in your case you can control exactly how much of the language of music you understand, but its like learning any other language each person has difficulties and takes time dedication but the potential in the end is full creative expression instantly that potential is there for you.

    regarding the people you spoke of that went ot school and seemingly did not know much.

    the entirety of the music language is complex , people can know some things and not be comfortable with others, they can master a fragment and but illiterate in the bigger picture, i can give you a million situations like that with millions of factor, the answer to your comment it the situation is more complex than your story leads to believe. there are millions of variables in the language of music as a whole. a persons knowledge can be from zero to 100 percent and anywhere in between with any gaps in any places and chunks of knowledge missing in different places. it is not just knowing the information itself , bu t the order that it all fits in as well.
    let me know if there is anything i can do to help you understand it, if you dedicated i can teach you( helps me refine it in my head as well)
    starting off with the basics of learning music language is circle of fifths we can write it in stright line though, (commit this to memory)

    FCGDAEB F#C#G#D#A#E#B# (F- C- G- D- A- E- B-)

    7 natural notes 7 sharps 7 flats
    except that E# = F and B# = C (those 2 notes get removed,
    next F- = E and C- = B (those 2 also get removed
    this is what you get now


    FCGDAEB F#C#G#D#A# FCGDAEB F#C#G#D#A#(G- D- A- E- B-)

    start on any note move 1 spot to the left and count forward 7 notes to get your major KEY
    say C, move 1 left so FCGDAEB arranged in order is CDEFGAB

    how about D# major key? go 1 left so G#D#A#FCGD now in order D# F G G# A# C D

    this little bit to write and commit to memory is how you memorize all 12 major-minor keys. ( the minor is starting on the 6th note once you have them in proper order so Cm is C D D# F G G# A# C

    once you have your key you skip every other note to build chords. say our key is C major A minor that means

    CDEFGABC is our notes , each note represnets a chord, and a mode.
    1.CEGBDFA
    2.DFACEGB
    3.EGBDFAC
    4.FACEGBD
    5.GBDFACE
    6.ACEGBDF
    7.BDFACEG

    the I or CEGB is home (what the whole key is based on or center point) the V or 5 or GBDF is dominant or the tension or furthest from home the sene of breathing in the music. each other chord represents a distance from the home or the dominant . you have 2 impotant chords in a major key the rest is adding detail

    1.CEGB home
    2.DFAC slightly away
    3. EGBD home
    4. FACE almost away ( sub dominant)
    5. GBDF away
    6. ACEG home
    7. BDFA away

    so you have 7 chords in the key each represents only 2 chords, and the whole entire key itself represents the C note. so just like the notes can build chords, keys have the same relationship as single notes music language is fractal.
    you have the freedom to change keys as often as single chords or keep a key for whole song.
    the keys C E G# are all related to C (connected by the augmented scale) then you have C D# F# A majors keys are related to C (connected together by diminished scale)

    here is how that all works demonstrated on piano ( and using it for something)
    this answers the question to your exact situation, which is "how do i take a melody and build music from it)





    Part II ---Connecting KEYS in a FAmily using Augmented scale.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    FCGDAEB F#C#G#D#A# FCGDAEB F#C#G#D#A#(G- D- A- E- B-)

    C#G#D#A#FCG


    C E G# = C augmented chord. we will use each note major scale.

    C major. CDEFGAB
    1.CEGBDFA
    2.DFACEGB
    3.EGBDFAC
    4.FACEGBD
    5.GBDFACE
    6.ACEGBDF
    7.BDFACEG

    E major. AEBF#C#G#D# arranged in order is E F# G# A B C# D#

    1.EG#BD#F#AC#
    2.F#AC#EG#BD#
    3.G#BD#F#AC#E
    4.AC#EG#BD#F#
    5.BD#F#AC#EG#
    6.C#EG#BD#F#A
    7.D#F#AC#EG#B

    G# / A- major. C#G#D#A#FCG arranged in order G#A#CC#D#FG or A- B- C D- E- F G

    1. A- C E- G B- D- F
    2. B- D- F A- C E- G
    3. C E- G B- D- F A-
    4. D- F A- C E- G B-
    5. E- G B- D- F A- C
    6.F A- C E- G B- D-
    7.G B- D- F A- C E-

    now that we have our 3 related KEYS lest compare the II or 2 chord

    C major II DFACE
    E major II F#AC#E ( G-A D- E
    A- major II A#C#FA ( B- D- F A

    next lets compare our V or dominant chord for each of the related KEYS

    C major V GBDFA
    E major V BD#F#A (B E- G- A
    A- major V D#GA#C# ( E-GB-D-


    we can see in each of the keys the chords are in the same location as the chord of the other keys this is how these 3 keys are related because the notes are right next to each other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  16. Downlo

    Downlo Kapellmeister

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    :wink:Thanks, you already helped me a lot by sharing your view. Makes absolute sense.
    These persons i talked about are such fantastic musicians. I wish i had their skills.

    Everything i know about music i taught myself, using tutorials and my ears. But i never really got into learning scales.
    To be honest it's a bit overwhelming. Seeing all those combinations of keys written out provokes a sudden case of dyslexia.
    I'm going to copy paste your post to textfile. Then sit behind my keyboard so i can also hear the relation between those notes.
    For sure this post above will keep me busy for a while. :like: I also copied the image file of the circle of fifths you posted.
    Thank you for your kindness and willingness to help.:bow:
     
  17. 23322332

    23322332 Platinum Record

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    Circle of fifths is quite useless, imo, for pop and electronic music (unless you are composing a large form composition that will modulate a lot).
    The 12 keys on the piano are detuned, so you can basically play anything that you imagine and noone will say anything as long as you don't hit too many tritones (0-6 which is C-F#/Gb, if you start counting from C) or minor seconds (0-1) and its inversion (0-11), these two intervals are dissonant . It's easy to use integer notation like the atonal composers to learn fast the notes and scales without wondering for names, label the notes from 0 to 11.
    0 is the tonic, 12 is octave.


    Learn the basic scales -
    ! Major aka Ionian's formula is 221 -2- 221 = keys CDEFGABC with integer notation 024579,11,12
    = 0245 - 0245 = two Ionian/Major tetrachords= white keys on the piano. You can modulate to another Ionian scale using the circle of fifths, but this is super rare in pop/electronic music. This scale has 6 other modes, you can start playing from D to D, or E-E and so on. Their harmony is less good than Ionian for finishing the piece on a final chord. They are called Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian/Natural minor, Locrian. The names are wrong, if we check the original Greek names, but we are too many centuriec too late to change them, too many people learn them this way and it will be too confusing.
    The modes are pretty popular in popular music too. Mode 2 = in folk, electronic, medieval music etc; Mode 3 - for spanish or pseudo-arabic feel; Mode 4 - used in film music for "feel good moments" or feeling of fantasy; Mode 5 in folk, blues, rock; Mode 6 - pop, rock, electronic, medieval; Mode 7 - metal, horror, unstable spanish feel.
    Mode 1 and 6 are the most popular. This is the best scale for harmony, it has 6 consonant chords.
    ! Melodic/Jazz Minor - Same as Ionian, but the 3rd note is 3 (minor), not major (4), so it's one Dorian 0235 and one Ionian O245 tetrachord and it and its modes are used in all kind of hymns, film music (Vangelis), older jazz (Gershwin and so on). It's pretty rare in pop these days.
    ! Harmonic minor - the lower tetrachord is 0235, the upper - 0145. Feel of scale and its modes: pseudo arabic/indian, supernatural, sultry, tragic or epic/dark (as used by Beethoven, Chopin etc).

    Blues scales - take 4-5 note scale and add a passing tone, simulating the septimal notes that are not present on the keyboard.
    You will usually use notes from the scale to form the chords, skipping a scale degree.

    The most consonant Chords that you can use to harmonize any melody, if you don't want to stick to any particular scale are:
    2-limit - 0-12 = doubling the frequency = 1/1 - 2/1
    3-limit - 0-7-12 the next most stable chord, dividing the octave in 2 equal parts = C-G-C. 1/1-3/2-2/1
    Inversion is 0-5-12.
    5-limit - 0-5-9-12 (subdom chord in inversion) is slightly distorted chord in 12-et, dividing the octave in 3 equal parts.
    1/1- 4/3- 5/3-2/1
    Inversion is - 0-3-7-12 = minor chord.
    7-limit - 0-4-7-10 (distorted in 12et)-12. Harmonic major chord in JI or dominant 7th chord in 12et. You can hear it performed by the barbershop quartets or some vocal jazz groups. Divides the octave in 4 equal parts.
    1/1- 5/4- 3/2 - 7/4 - 2/1
    Skip the last note (10), if you don't like the tension. The inversion is close to the so called m7b5 chord popular in jazz.
     
  18. dee steve

    dee steve Newbie

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    Thanks for your time and energy two things you can never get back...I appreciate it...peace
     
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  19. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    if you go through these videos listed in the comment box right above this one by "dee steve" you can change all that.
    start with number one take your time go as slow and re-watch it many times as you need to , then move on to number 2 all the way to number 47 etc. there are more being added all the time.
    make sure you fathom each item demonstrated even breaking it down sentence by sentence , but do it in a casual way dont put pressure on yourself, remember the brain by understanding does the hard work as long as you pay attention you will get it.

    at times if we pressure ourselves or have expectations make assumptions that is the block we create thinking its too hard or "i just cant get it" mentality.

    music is literally a language, one that is a thousand times simpler than your spoken one. just let the understanding come to you by studying that music theory course free to you at a comfortable pace (if you feel it is important to fully understand music, so that you can fully express yourself instantly at all times once you put that work in)

    some people approach music differently, they want to accidentally write music not knowing how they did it or how it works 1 out of 1000 times, and 999 of the rest of the time have writers block or develop one melody and not know how to write the rest, that is perfectly valid also. decide what YOU want for an end result.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
  20. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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