The Secrets of Music. Hard to Find Info Techniques UPDATED last comment)

Discussion in 'Education' started by MMJ2017, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    Well, I got interested in the more obscure stuff only because I want to try blending traditional world music with Western harmony; if you are interested in some theoretical books that I might have scanned, just ask.
    Btw, for polyrhythm/polymeter stuff check Bounce metronom pro. It's a cheap software with 1 month trial that can be used as a metronome for crazy pulses and rhythms, if you want to practice polyrhythms/meter ( but crappy GUI).
    Also Xronomorph - this one is free and generates pseudo-ethnical beats or musical scales.
     
  2. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Platinum Record

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    sweet, for years i have loved bounce glad to know another that likes it haha when i show most people they like "huh?" lol
     
  3. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Platinum Record

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    just wondering , to you personally, what is the significance of making ratios of a starting note which ends up with spiral where notes are spaced differently from each other? and what do you think is wrong with making 12 equally spaced notes?
    im trying but i cannot find a complaint with 12 tone equal temperament. i see it as perfect ( not saying i dont like other temperaments though like flutes hand made instruments by played themselves)
    i heard amn argument about the third but we dont play 1 3 5 we put the third octave higher and you cant notice a difference ( its all about interval spacing)

    what im trying to figure out is where is the real connection between harmonics that make a specific sound up, ( of course it going to be perfect ratios because it IS that one note) and how you would decide spacing of your notes and how many of them?

    i cant figure out how anyone made that jump from " oh, this harmonics of the note is ratios of so and so" " now i must use that for other sets of notes"
    where is the connection to other notes?
    myself, i see it as yes those ratios make up this sound we are looking, which has ZERO CONNECTION to other notes.
    if a person DID derive other notes you wouldn't actually have other notes, no matter what you played everything would sound like the original note you derived the ratios from. it make sno sense to have your notes spaced differently from each other , that means your forced into having 1 note the most important and the rest notes not their own.
    where as you have equally spaced notes the person using them is not forced to have only one note to play with they have 12 or however many.
    12toneET is objectively the best option that is why it is so universal.
    i just cant see the value of a spiral of notes?

    [​IMG]
    thats awful
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  4. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Platinum Record

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  5. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    The octaves on the normal pianos are stretched, acoustic pianos can't be perfectly tuned to 12et without getting discords.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity

    Why not 12et - because major sucks big time in my opinion for electronic or computer based production. You can check the historical tunings, they were sacrificing the fifths to get decent major thirds.

    The pure major triad is 1/1 - 5/4 (386c) - 3/2, so the third in 12et is a wolf note (400c.), if you check the counterpoint books, they say that the third was considered a dissonance, because they used 407c Pythagorean third and only octaves + fifth or fourth was a legit chord.
    The pure minor third 6/5 (315c) actually doesn't sound sad like the 12et 300c or Pythagorean 294c thirds.
    Augmented 6th in 12et becomes the same thing as dominant 7th and this is sad.
    So, try some historical Western tunings, some Indian systems (they start are named "indian"), the egyptian 24 tone ("ad-dik" - it's with pure M3 and pythagorean m3) or whatever you like.

    Edit -> Preferences-> Output - Frequency for 1/1 and set the base frequency that you will play (I use general midi for testing in the program, not a synth and export .tun or .scl file for my DAW)
    Edit -> Edit mapping (here you adjust the keyboard mapping and the base note, if you are going to try export tuning file - setting the midi key for the root and frequency).

    There are like 4000 scala files, but you can make your own scales.
    Clicking "show" or typing it will reveal the tuning after you load it.
     
  6. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Platinum Record

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    the difference is so subtle , equal temperament has a slight tension to it, but guess what running through analog gear with complex waveforms like vocals and real instruments ( anything more complex than simple waves) creates just as much tension anyway. i really dont see the point. even in the demonstration the difference is negligible, that is to say you can barely tell. then when you dealing with real world examples you REALLY cannot barely tell the difference it is just ever so slightly more tense. adding more texture and 3d aspect, just like running a guitar through a tube amp, or adding tape saturation transistor saturation to a vocal.
    in this specific example there is a big problem with "justonic" every time you have more than one note playing together it STILL sounds like only one note, because it actually is if you make your notes exactly the same as harmonics of another note, you are not getting a "new" note at all, you playing a timbre of the note you already have so when you stack notes to make a chord in "justonic" ( also the pythg based temperaments and just temperaments i have heard so far anyway) what you hear is a single note still ,just richer, you are not hearing multiple notes you hearing only one note, with harmonics changing ( for chord progression for example) listen to this video and see for yourself especially when they play the chord progression part. in justonic you dont have chords no matter what you always hear a single note playing , but the harmoincs or timbre changes .
    I myself am not interested in playing one note all the time, i want to have 12 notes, where i can do anything i want with them. i can make c# the "center point" or i can make f the center point. with justtonic and pythag temperaments, the initial note you derive ratios from is the only note you will ever have period. you cannot have chords but you can change timbre by adding harmonics through perfect ratios.

    so actually there might be times when justonic and pythag are very valuable, which is to say modifying harmonics of a single note, by dealing with ratios of an initial, you could actually use justonic for say a synth plugin where you can change the timbre of the initial note with ratios, but then have equal temperament to get all 12 notes,
    that is to say 12 pythag sets of harmonics to add different ways to shape the tonality through timbre, then have the normal 12tone et to be able to do that 12 times. this would be very interesting to create .
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  7. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    Well, people are playing crazy money (analog compressors, expensive preamps, mixing consoles etc) for way subtler changes to the timbre than JI. It's not the most convenient thing in the world, but I think it sounds nice.
    About the thing that you say for the chords - it's because of the low harmonic entropy. That's the point of harmony.
    (More complex timbres won't blend as easy as sine waves which can really sound like overtones.)
    We can see in the graph below that in one octave the most consonant intervals are fifth, fourth, M6, M3, m3 and 7/4 (barbershop seventh - 30c off in 12 et).
    Some of these aren't avaliable in 12et - two types of neutral second, neutral major third, two tritones that are +-20 cents from the 12et tritone, pure minor seventh and neutral seventh. There are definitely still unexplored areas in the harmony.
    And this is in the octave. If we look beyond the octave, we see more more distorted intervals not avaliable in 12et, some of them are with arabic flavour which means that probably arabic intervals have to be voiced as upper extensions (similar to the jazz chords).

    t3_01_13p2877.gif
     
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  8. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Platinum Record

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    cool brother
    im starting to see that pythag or just temp can be used for unusual things also it is interesting, like another thing to add to your tool belt
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  9. anonymouse

    anonymouse Newbie

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    Hi MMJ2017,

    I recreated your snare drum FX chain in one of my projects, works amazingly well! I copied it on my kickdrum and hihats which worked also great.

    Care to share how you picked these plugins, and why in that order?

    Thanks for sharing, greets!
     
  10. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Platinum Record

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    Hello sir ,

    so the concept itself came from the way 1940's and 50's hand-wired guitar amplifiers work.that is where i got the concept, i treat each plugin like a component in a hand-wired amplifier where they each do tiny aspect of the sound but it all adds up to shape your sound and tone giving thick rich and even tone.

    to get into the specifics of how to evaluate , in order to pick each individual plugins what i do is start off with the plain track and with real high end clear monitors listen closely to the sound and listen for what "wrinkles need to be ironed out"
    next every time i add a plugin im slowly changing the "fine grain detail" of the sound and perfecting it so once you are at the last plugin in the chain you have the full results i was looking for in the sound tone and character of the track, sometimes there are instances where i need to do 2 or 3 whole plugin chains to get there but the whole process goes by real fast now and is very intuitive. the idea is that by dealing with the "tiny aspect" or the "atomic level" of the details you can fully "iron out the wrinkles" as opposed to say a dry track putting one compressor on and cranking the settings to me that "adds more wrinkles" to the sound and is working on the " large structure" with no care given to the "tiniest atomic level of the audio"
    I hope that helps my friend thanks.
     
  11. foster911

    foster911 Audiosexual

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    The biggest secret for me in my life is "how my music works". If someone could reveal it, I'll give him/her $1M, excuse me $1B.:thumbsup:
     
  12. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Platinum Record

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    hello foster911,
    I believe i know the "secret " of how YOUR music works ( its okay you can keep the $18 dollars THIS TIME lol haha) but i might be wrong too :C
    so i think your secret to your music is that you start out with some sense of the way you want it to feel to you, next you begin to add in the instruments and elements of the song where each step to take you are auditioning everything from the type of tone and sound design, to what notes and beats placements, that i think is how "secret" of your personal music is made that you audition each thing down to everything one step at a time, in other words there is no pre-planning or pre-production, also no pre planning of music theory or structure.( I just giving example there of how what i am explaining as your personal secret to how you make your music is unique and cannot apply to everyone all of the time , that there are ways other peoples secrets of how they make their music is much different to yours.
    somehow i dont think this is a secret to you though sir.
     
  13. G String

    G String Platinum Record

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    You have $1Bn to give away? And you give it away over this shit?

    Weird.

    Promise it to someone who does genuine good, not someone that helps you stick your own cock further up your arse? :D
     
  14. foster911

    foster911 Audiosexual

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    I tend to be reticent to a guy that has chosen G String name for his avatar.:rofl: If you were a lady, the situation was totally different.:bleh:
     
  15. taskforce

    taskforce Rock Star

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    nope, this is no secret... it doesn't work
     
  16. foster911

    foster911 Audiosexual

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    Why? Because it's beyond the endemic wrong perceptions?

    I ain't a fledgling pop star nor a sole armchair reader but as a fully-fledged old-man, cultivated in snippet making say:

    "Music is a random process and there's no secret in randomness. What you need is just finding some ways to control it in a fashion that the listener doesn't suffer."

    and you can not refute it.:rofl:

    And a question for you. What does a listener expect from a music maker? The answer to this question is more important than the music itself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  17. anonymouse

    anonymouse Newbie

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    Why would you think music is a random process..?
     
  18. G String

    G String Platinum Record

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    How do you know I am not a lady?
     
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