MMJ2017, have you ever seen/heard something related to chord melody using only/mostly modal progressions? it seems to be a very interesting application of these modal concepts...

 

mostly when a person goes to play chess they are aware of how chess works

just think of it as if a human being wanted to get involved in "music" they would figure out how music works. if a human being wanted to get involved in clothing design they would figure out how sewing and stitching works, if a person wanted to get involved in building houses they would figure out how carpentry, engineering ,drafting works. this is called audiosex a place where people are wanting to be involved with music profession a slice of that involves having your brain or mine comprehend the way music actually works ,.

the same thing that i want to do with all of my knowledge.
improve every aspect of my life. ( in area of music, knowledge improves every single aspect of it in every way at all times forever.)

like with everything in reality, when you change things, the way it works is going to change depending on what it is.

you can use "grace" notes or leading tones a half step away from your chord tone that is not a part of your current key.
you can use any of the 12 notes( or bend to notes in between the 12) on an "off" beat as long as it resolves to your chord tone on the on beat.
so "off" beats can be any note (as long as it resolves)

it is not that there is a quick and easy formula, it is that there is a way (many times pretty complex) that music actually works( in this case MODAL language) but you have Tonal language, Modal, language, Poly-tonal, Language and Atonal Language ( just in 12 tone Equal temperament.
for each there is a way that exists in reality how these each work in reality, it is up to you if you want your brain or it is up to me if i want my brain to comprehend how reality works for music. what the word music means how it all works.

it comes across pretty powerful to me actually,
but the fact that it is not 12 tone et is insignificant, we are talking about a tiny fraction of vibration per second difference to the ear.

what special about 12 tone et is that you get 12 KEYS to use at all times each have 7 chords and modes that turns into millions of options,

12 tone equal temperament is here to stay forever.

we will never design of clocks on the wall to have the hours different length in time from another and just like 12 hours on a clock that are equal, our music is made from 12 equal spaced notes.
play and experiment with sounds temperaments,turnings all of it have fun, but also do the same with 12 tone et.
https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Music/et.html

here is free vst of piano that accepts tunings temperaments.
www.vst4free.com/get_lpn1.php?win32=Neo_Piano_mini.zip
and bunch free tunings temperaments. over 4700
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/downloads.html
for me just tunings pythag temperaments are just adding harmonics to one single note so you dont get a chord at all.

all you have to ask yourself is how many keys you want access to in one song?
with 12 tone et you DO get a tension BUT that allows you to actually distinguish notes from harmonics.( its a good thing) plus adding in the ability for 12 keys in one song your golden.

 

Last edited: Dec 15, 2017

The Language of Modal music volume II


Here is a secret about the circle of fifths. you can create any keys and modes with it.

lets make a chromatic key with 12 notes. start on a note and go right every new note you add to the last ( a higher note every time)
if we start with C we then add a higher G then higher D and A,E,B,F#,C#,G#,D#,A# this gives us a chromatic C key
CGDAEBF# the first 7 notes ( C lydian from normal G major) the 7th note is F#, 8th is Dflat, 9th is Afalt, all the way to all 12 this is the order of bright to dark each new note is darker, AND each new note is slightly more dissonant

from this system built right into the circle of fifths came a whole concept called

The Lydian Chromatic Concept of tonal organization .

this idea was formed by George Russell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_Chromatic_Concept_of_Tonal_Organization


how the system works is that lydian is the consonant tonic of major and dorian is the consonant tonic of minor ( Ionian is just a mode, aeolian is just a mode)

FGABCDEF or the white notes on a piano all relate to the note F not C ( C ionian is really an inversion of F lydian starting from the fifth FACE. A aeolian is actually just a inversion of F lydian starting on the third FACE )also inversion of D dorian DFA starting from Fifth

this concept allows for your entire scale to be stacked into a chord in resolved way grab your piano and push down CDEFGAB all in a row BUT add in a lower F note now do the same with lower D note notice how both resolve perfectly?

here is how it works


everything is based on F lydian or FCGDAEB FGABCDEF
you have 5 chords (becuase ionian is inversion of lydian and aeolian is inversion of lydian)
so if you look at CDEFGABC it makes a FACE
and if you make abcdefg chord is also lydian chord


next you can see after starting with lydian 7 notes you begin to add in the other 12 notes creating new scales from alterations.




you get the ability to have a new way to integrate all 12 notes and create all new keys and modes


the concept says Lydian is the true major, Dorian is the true minor they are more consonant than ionian and aeolian for major and minor.
the concept allows for smooth way to travel keys,

lets say if you were going with a traditional ii V to I how would you convert that?

the ii and V (normally dfac, gbdf) stay the same BUT because lydian is the natural "do" or tonal center you resolve to the cegbdf# from the G major key.
your ii and V or Dm7 and G7 come from c major and your I cegbdf# comes from IV of G major

https://www.amazon.com/Lydian-Chrom...382343&sr=8-1&keywords=george+russell++lydian



from my perspective learning this system allows to mix between it and regular tonal system even in a single song to allow for 4 different tonal centers

so you have C ionian and A aeolian tonal centers then F lydian and D dorian tonal centers
FOUR tonal centers in every KEY
and now you have a bridge between Tonal music language and Modal music language to use at your own will however you like to varying degrees.

 

Last edited: Dec 16, 2017

and now also adding from the Lydian chromatic concept



we can see some overlap here.

this gives us the ability to take aspects from Tonal music language and merge with Modal music language based on using all 12 notes and keys ( with 4 tonal centers C ionian and A aeolian, F lydian and D dorian.
in other words when we have a 7 note scale
lets say CDEFGAB
four of those modes or notes or chords can be the center point or the focus in relation to everything else.
CEGBDFA or CEG or CDEFGAB
ACEGBDF or ACE or ABCDEFG
FACEGBD or FAC or FGABCDE
DFACEGB or DFA or DEFGABC

we can structure our writing at any point to make everything focus on one of those and at any point switch to another of those 4
(the same holds for ALL of the 12 major keys they all have 4 tonal centers. available.

 

lets dive a bit more into the Lydian Chromatic Concept to see how it is unique and what you can do with it.
take CDEFGABC pitch collection (key) lets look at how it works

cdefgab = lydian FACEGBD (except your starting at fifth C) ALWAYS plays over lydian chord
defgabc = dorian DFACEGB ( the true minor center)
efgabcd = phrygian (used as lydian with E in the bass or as its own mode for EGBDFA
fgabcde = true major center FACEGBD
gabcdef = dominant tension chord gbdface
abcdefg = aeolian FACEGBD ( except starting at the third giving a sad melody ALWAYS plays over lydian chord
bcdefga = dominant tension chord bdfaceg Bmin7flat5

we can see a couple things stand out everything revolves around LYDIAN as home . there are 2 dominant tension (away from home options)
GBDFACE, and BDFACEG , next there are 3 versions of lydian the lydian (root) the ionian ( the fifth) aeolian( the third (FACE)
these three modes all based on the chord FACEGBD by playing melodies overtop the FACE chord in each of these 3 modes you get different flavor.
finally ionian has nothing to do with cmajor ONLY flydian. aeolian has NOTHING to do with a minor only has to do with f lydian
so in every key the 7 modes ACTUALLY are broken into lydian FACE (true major) dorian DFAC (true minor) and 2 dominant functions GBDF mixo and BDFA Locrian.

using this type of harmony means a new way of transitioning to other keys .

finally , as we start from Lydian in the circle of fifths FCGDAEB and we add in each next new note to include all 12 notes we create new keys each more "outside" or dissonant than the next.

 

yes your right IF YOU DON'T know what you are doing, it is true that you WOULD be in that instance, putting random stuff together that is true.
just like if you never learned your spoken language you wouldn't be able put meaningful sentences together. that is an excellent point to bring up.
THIS is why I advocate actually learning what the hell you are doing so you don't end up IN that situation.
This is why i have created this thread the language of modal music (which comes after the first in the series the language of Tonal music)
so people can learn how it works to not end up in that situation .it is the the situation you have placed yourself through freewill, to be ignorant of music languages and have to guess at what you are doing which is just randomly smashing notes together, because you don't know what you are doing. ( the audience(listener) is the judge if you know what you are doing)

 

Last edited: Dec 16, 2017

Lydian Chromatic Concept PART II
------------------------------

Looking at the information discussed earlier we can see some key differences , some ways that make the lydian chromatic concept unique.

In the lydian chromatic concept

we have Vertical harmony and we have horizontal harmony.

vertical harmony is like our F lydian mode. FGABCDE
if we stack in fifths from F we get FCGDAEB which is our full scale
this means vertical harmony is unique in that is can be used to make a full chord out of the scale
in one moment of time while being consonant ( no avoid notes)
and second we can using the same scale FGABCDEF create any melodies
we can do both and combinations of chords and melodies that use the entire scale.
we can construct a peice were all the insturments of a orchestra "add up" by them playing different things but it adds up vertiacally to be the chord of lydian

FACEGBD FGABCDE FMaj7#11

this works for our dorian as a minor tonality and for our lydian as our major lydian tonality.

think of a song where the bassline the keyboards the guitars the vocals play different things but they all add up to be a lydian or dorian

this is where our modal language aspects are used.
test this for yourself in your daw or with piano guitar etc.

take f lydian FGABCDEF play all those notes in a row at same time in middle octave now try playing as
FACEGBD (Fmaj#11)

next try playing different melodies using FGABCDEF ( playing over a held out low F low )

next do the same for D dorian DEFGABCD and DFACEGB chord.

finally take F lydian FACEGBD

start by playing low F note and then upper region play ACE, then switch triad to CEG then swicth to EGB then to GBD

and lastly do the same exact thing ,except with a low D note( then alternate the low notes F with all the triads playing then D with all the triads playing at the end play the lydian chord then dorian chord

this shows us the modal language with lydian and dorian as tonal centers any notes from the scales are consonant of the roots.

next in lydian chromatic concept you have the concept of horizontal harmony
this is the workings of Tonal music language say ii V to I ( except I becomes the IV of the key a fifth higher so Dm7 and G7 (ii and V of C major ) but resolves to I( lydian from G major key
CEGBDF#
in other words when you DO use a traditional Tonal music progression you convert Ionian to lydian Cmaj7 (from C maj key) gets changed into CMaj#11 (lydian from G major key)

in this way you are able to combine Tonal music language and Modal music languages .

 

Last edited: Dec 16, 2017

Way to go guy/gals trashing a perfectly scripted thread to shreds, all off topic posts and trolling have been removed. A joke here or there is fine but what this thread here was a ego disaster.

 

Last edited: Dec 17, 2017

Looking at the above chart we can see variations of the lydian chromatic scale ( containing all 12 notes,) broken down to individual scales to choose from)

How this chart works for LCC is you can see the main scale on top, then on the left column you have its modes with roman numerals
then the chords available for that key, where they are located in the modes.

in the lydian chromatic concept as you travel outward to use these other scales you get a darker more dissonant sound.
as you travel inward you get a brighter more consonant sound .

you can use these in different ways.

say you begin with a section of a song in the lydian whole tone scale in F that gives you the notes FGABC#D# you have 2 main chords G7#5 or G#flat5 and second C#7#5 or C#7flat5

so you began with g outlining the 2 chords a basss line and a meldy ( from the scales and modes)
now when you go to transition to the next pat of the song you can stay in same scale , or move in ward to more consonant (towards pure lydian) or move more dissonant to the right to the diminished scales and blues scales



You can think of it as you always have all 12 notes and how they all relate to the home lydian note.

Depending how often you want to change scales and chords you can control the consonance and dissonance and have the ability to have any melodies you make consonant with a full chord.

ionian and aeolian are only used over you lydian chord ( C is the fifth of FAC and A is the third)

Just as we looked at in the Language of Tonal music, KEYS are not the largest structure.
in the lydian chromatic concept we can use augmented shape C E G# major keys make each connect to each other using the system as described also we can take the diminished shape and connect C D# F# A keys this gives us the ability to shift our tonla center so instead of everything focused arounf F lydian (from C major) we can shift to say A lydian (from E major) and once we shift to a new Lydian center everything else follows just from that new point.
lets look at circle of fifths ( large letters going around only)
we want to derive A lydian so starting from A note go clockwise adding in 7 notes
A,E,B,F#,C#,G#,D#, then arrange in order A B C# D# E F# G# (E major)

now get the equivalent to this chart below except with A lydian we contine aroubnd the circle until we add each note, each new note added creates the new scale as shown below
everythihg works the same its just that we are shifting to a new tonal center a new consonant lydian home chord.

I know the Lydian Chromatic Concept is unusual strange and confusing, but if you take your time go slow until you understand it you will be able to integrate this system into what you can already do, completely expanding your options
this system gives you the ability to use all 12 notes and 12 keys in a unique way which, when combined with the way to use all 12 notes and 12 keys from the Language of Tonal music
will give you an infinite variety of options at all times for your creativity.
combining both languages Tonal and Modal gives you full control over expressing feelings and emotions to the listener of your music no matter how complex or sparse you care to make it.

lets take a look at some of this in action in improvisation ( jazz insnt important for these languages you can make any style but lets hear john coltrane live from 1965 using this material on the fly
listen for the content and varieties of feeling expressed

 

Last edited: Dec 17, 2017

http://antonjazz.com/2012/11/brightness-darkness/
http://antonjazz.com/2016/01/pentatonic-scales/

lets look at these sites and the images on them

 

Thanks a lot man. There's nothing like a good moderation session to clean the house. For sure, we must ensure that we focus on modal music and/or the relationship between tonal and modal music. Personal impressions about divergent ideologies concerning other theories and their applications (including criticisms regarding the valuation of modalism or tonalism), please create another post to discuss this.

 

Last edited: Dec 17, 2017

12ET is good, because log2(3/2) is close to

1/1= [0;1] = 1 error +0.4150374992788438 (70.95%)
1/2 = [0;1,1] = 0.5 error -0.08496250072115619 (14.52%)
2/3 = [0;1,1,1] = 0.6666666666666666 error +0.08170416594551044 (13.97%)
3/5 = [0;1,1,2] = 0.6 error +0.015037499278843791 (2.571%)
4/7 = [0;1,1,2,1] = 0.5714285714285714 error -0.01353392929258479 (2.314%) (the "distorted" diatonic in 7et that is still use in Thailand,( ancient China - not anymore), Africa))
7/12 = [0;1,1,2,2] = 0.5833333333333334 error -0.0016291673878228163 (0.2785%)
17/29 = [0;1,1,2,2,2] = 0.5862068965517241 error +0.0012443958305679015 (0.2127%)
24/41 = [0;1,1,2,2,3] = 0.5853658536585366 error +0.0004033529373803635 (0.06895%)
31/53 = [0;1,1,2,2,3,1] = 0.5849056603773585 error -0.000056840343797714965 (0.009717%)(discovered by the chinese 45 BCE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdrian_comma )

The complementary set (the black key pentatonic "tonality" - most of the pop music, including jazz is still mostly influenced by it, not by the Western major minor system) is log2(4/3) based which is close to

1/1 = [0;1] = 1 error +0.5849625007211563 (140.9%)
1/2 = [0;2] = 0.5 error +0.0849625007211563 (20.47%)
1/3 = [0;2,1] = 0.3333333333333333 error -0.08170416594551039 (19.69%)
2/5 = [0;2,2] = 0.4 error -0.01503749927884368 (3.623%)
3/7 = [0;2,2,1] = 0.42857142857142855 error +0.013533929292584845 (3.261%)
5/12 = [0;2,2,2] = 0.4166666666666667 error +0.0016291673878229829 (0.3925%)
12/29 = [0;2,2,2,2] = 0.41379310344827586 error -0.001244395830567846 (0.2998%) (pentatonic evolves to )
17/41 = [0;2,2,2,3] = 0.4146341463414634 error -0.000403352937380308 (0.09718%)
22/53 = [0;2,2,2,3,1] = 0.41509433962264153 error +0.00005684034379782599 (0.01370%)

Of course, there are other dichotomies in 12et, not only these two and it is easy to hear them all the time in the modern 19-20-21st century music (the chromatic progressions from 17-limit JI are here ( that are so popular in sci-fi film music), the "symmetrical" scales loved by the avantardists etc). There is no such thing like modal language and tonal language, it's all one thing.


http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Periodic+scale

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Scale+properties+simplified

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generated_collection

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_set_theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothenberg_propriety

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_temperament

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisector_(music)

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Mathematics+of+MOS

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/constant+structure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_group

http://ehess.modelisationsavoirs.fr/atiam/biblio/Clough&DouthettJMT-1991.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulatory_space

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Chordal+space

Removed trolling Content.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2017

The whole LLC concept is that Lydian is the generator of the set 7-35 from 12ET

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pitch-class_sets. You can order fifths in that way, the generators are the fifths and the octave, but where is the centre of the lattice? DORIAN. It's symmetrical.

But what happens when we use for generators fifths like that - 5/4 6/5 5/4 6/5 5/4 6/5 (major-minor thirds).
Where is the centre of the lattice? Tell me - it's Ionian, just like Riemann noticed when he invented the terms dominant and subdominant function, then assigned a function to the other scale degrees and the "borrowed" chords.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/book...music-theory/1E331E53DC92BE497C74D40DE195105A

Read this, then read any semi-advanced book published in the last 20 years on music theory.

https://www.amazon.com/Geometry-Music-Counterpoint-Extended-Practice/dp/0195336674

This one is the most comprehensive and is a good introduction written for people with minimum math.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2017

my personal opinion is that dorian is the center.( lydian is still usable but dorian more harmonious) ( im presenting the LCC on this thread as George Russell wrote it) however the way he presents dorian and its use in the system it is still a center anyway look through my writings on here you will see the informatio is there for dorian to be harmonious( lydian and dorian)besides that you can artificially use many of scales.

tonal music language and modal music language are used differently to create different results.
with modal music you specifically use array of techniques to weaken the function and present a feeling to the listener of ambiguity .

in Tonal music you have ionian and mixolydian ( really the tonic and dominant) everything else is a representation of one of those 2 options.
modal does not work that , in modal there is no representation of tonic and dominant ( unless you are directly using them) in modal any scale or mode exists on its own terms floating there.
( you have to do things a certain way in order to get that outcome otherwise you will accidentally create tonal music that does not function correctly to the listeners perspective .

now with lydian chromatic concept is a bridge between tonal and modal you can go back and read what i have posted on it and the links to purchase the book on it.
the concept is based on circle of fifths you start on any note and going clockwise add in your others , once you get to 7 note scales each new note you add in going clockwise from the circle creates more and more dissonance with your initial picked note ( tonal center)
from there you have a variety of options to mix tonal music with modal music and go from consonance to dissonance change between 4 different centers ( per key)
this is all before bridging to poly-tonal and atonal languages which will have their own threads.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2017

Where the fuck do you find this shit. ( music video)

 

a little ole' thing called the billboard hot 100 my brother lol

https://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100

all kinds of goofy things come up on there!

(that i still find interesting)



i have to say i much prefer this though

its a great use of modal and tonal languages

 

Last edited: Dec 17, 2017

MMJ, the term dominant wasn't associated with "function" pre Riemann, and was not associated with "tonal/modal" dichotomy (because basically noone was using modes by the time when the major books on Western harmony were written - Beethoven had to research "ancient" treatises and church hymns sheet music before writing contrapuntal melodies in some of his masses, he even included the words "Heiliger Dankgesang eines Genesenen an die Gottheit, in der lydischen Tonart" (not Modus) in one of his quartets, he didn't knew any other system outside of what he was taught and had to learn on his own), nor wasn't even the added 7th required to have a dominant chord, the 7th and the added 6th on the subdominant were thought that resolve strongly to the tonic by Rameu who basically invented the foundations of the Western harmonic music theory (Riemann, Schenker, Schoenberg etc build on his teachings, but the interesting thing is that in his time all this stuff was dismissed as a laughable theory by everyone - people were using "basso continuo" theory = the so called greatest composers like Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn etc studied various italian voice leading conventions and counterpoint (but guess what, simplified counterpoint, because for some reason noone was using the modes), no harmony in a modern sense).

In the modern school books dominant is strongly associated with 7th chord and people called this harmonic function. This was not the case even when Riemann invented his function theory. You are and many other people that don't know the history of the music theory say- only V7->I is tonal, so only Ionian, Melodic, Harmonic minor are tonal (ignoring that there are other 7-note pitch class sets that contain such voice leading) everything else is modal and not functional (really funny - because no functional in music theory means no relational, not not working as used by many) and should governed by a sense of stasis (how convenient for the jazz improvisators or weird chord changes - by 4ths, 5ths, seconds etc).
The thing is that each p.c. set permutation (mode of the major or any other scale) has its own relations ("functions") and conventions for smooth voice leading to the tonic (pitch centricity/tonality) that usually can't be simplified to standard V7 - I - pre-dumbing down of the Western school systems you had to learn to compose contrapuntally in all the modes and even in some modes that are almost not used to this way (it's rare to hear neapolitan scales outside of some of Ravel's stuff and the old italian operas).
The biggest problem is the inability of the old theoretists to recognise these relations and even the modes when they were used (it's sad to see someone talking about mode mixtures, alterations of the standard scales, modulations etc when someone clearly is deriving all the notes from a particular scale - that's his tonality, you can transpose it to to other scale degrees, to the circle of thirds, seconds, minor seconds, fourths, fifths, microtonal degrees, turn it upside down, transform it by altering the tones (development section in classical music) whatever you want). You are saying that modal and tonal languages are different, like a said, there are even people that deny the existence of the modes.

The truth is that that they are the same thing. All the possible relations in 12et are based on the symmetries of the 12gon.
"The regular dodecagon has Dih12 symmetry, order 24. There are 15 distinct subgroup dihedral and cyclic symmetries. Each subgroup symmetry allows one or more degrees of freedom for irregular forms. Only the g12 subgroup has no degrees of freedom but can seen as directed edges."
One of these symmetries (interval cycle) is the circle of fifths and fourths. There are other symmetries as well. Your scary jazz improvisation graph describes some of them. The truth is that to make the real graph, describing the various options you will need a lot bigger and a lot more complex map (there are 352 reduced sets and 4096 possible modes in 12et). Plus is this has to look like torus which adds more to the confusion.

 

first you bring up some important points and information i do not exclude.

when talking about Tonal music theory (in 2017) jumping back to hundreds of years ago and hyper-focusing on their understanding from that time (and their ignorance)does no us good.
to be talking about Tonal theory in 2017 means to account for everything all the way up to now.
What YOU are doing is taking scattered bits of knowledge you have from different times ( while having gaps throughout) and coming to some bizarre conclusions.
All one has to do is study music history to see how tonal music developed and how other languages developed out of that.
the facts are all there. in 1947 the contributions that charlie Parker(lets say just him for example) made to expanding tonal music language that did NOT exist before him, MUST be considered when talking about Tonal music language in 2017 the idea is to include EVERY SINGLE contribution that was ever made in Tonal language up to the current date in 2017.
I'm not sure why you think going back 200 or 300 years and not including everything up to 2017 would give you a full picture, that by definition gives you a 25 percent of gaps in tonal music language by omitting all the information about tonal music language from 1900 onward.( from 1900 onward consists of roughly 25 percent )to omitt 25 percent would be identical to trying to judge science by an understanding on science in 1930 ( omitting all we learned all the way up to 2017 scientific understanding) in any context, to omit variables leads to poor misunderstandings having big gaps in knowledge.

here lest look at an example of when Tonal music language was expanded in the time period of 1935 with Swing big band music there were contributions to the language of tonal music they made at this time period to push the language forward

we have to include ALL contributions to the advancement of tonal music leading to 2017, IF we are in 2017.
we can see that when looking the time period of 1935 swing, the tonal music language was expanded with larger than KEY structures

we have the foundation of tonal music language based on function of tonic and dominant. then the chord functional equivalents being used

I=iii=vi and ii=IV and V=vii%

then the unification of the subdominant and dominant

{(ii=IV),(V=vii%)}

the whole thing becomes
(I=ii=vi),{(ii=IV),(V=vii%)}

Next with the expansion of larger than key structures in the tonal language
by using Diminished shape and Augmented shape

putting this information together was the tonal music language advancements that occurred from 1930 -1950
then from 1955 onward the modal music language was further developed out of the information contained in the tonal music language ( even though the modal music language began many hundreds or longer years ago)

modal music language expansion

yes i am also aware that complex multi-dimensional geometry can be used to describe all the possible ways and options in 12 tone et. this thread is not meant to appeal to only the most elite thinkers though, just to understand those geometry's takes years of study.
the information i present is meant to present as much as possible to a person that can use it right away and hopefully give them enough to further study in depth if they choose.
the point here for these threads is pragmatism ,not elitism .

 

Last edited: Dec 18, 2017

Well, the thing is there is nothing new in jazz outside of the african blue (microtonal) notes that come from the blues and the african rhythms (and the free jazz, but is it a real music or post modern art manifest is just another question) . Every jazz harmonic "innovation" was already innovated by the late romantics and impressionists in Europe when jazz wasn't even created/still a marching band music with just I - V for harmony. Most of famous jazz composers worked with trained in the western tradition composers that for some reason were called "arrangers".These guys were somewhat similar to the modern pop ghost producers (well, not exactly, because jazz musicians could actually play unlike our modern pop stars and djs). Most of the harmonic influnces comes from them and because these guys were a more of a craftsmen, not pretending to be the next Bach, they were just using already composed stuff by the older composers (there were some nerds on vi-control and allaboutjazz that even could recite from which bar of Ravel/Wagner "Y" composer took the voicing). As much as I like Bill Evans, Miles, Coltrane etc, their music may be complex and nice to listen, but not new in terms of harmony, orchestration.

If you like diagrams like the one you posted, check Introduction to post tonal theory - by J. Straus where you will find the real "negative harmony" from the viral (700 000 youtube viewers on nerdy music theory interview!) Jacob Collier video. Of course, there is nothing "negative" in the topic and it's just all about geometric transformations. Bartok championed the usage of this method in a weird ways, but it can be found even in Bach. Of course, this is just one of the topics in this book (that doesn't deal with the more modern stuff like Boulez, Ligeti, Stockhausen, Xenakis etc Their innovations have yet to found by the pop/jazz acts). Someone may say that all this stuff sounds bad, but the same may be said even for tonal theory, if you misuse it( or if you can't play (like our friend Foster may have read some theory, but he didn't understood it ) or intentionally want to compose a music that breaks every psychological expectation/style tradition like most of post-modernists did), it's just a method and is up to you how to use it.

I'm certainly against the false - Tonal vs Modal opposition. Even most of the so called atonal music is tonal, but the tonic is a dissonant cluster or symmetrical augmented/diminished chord.

 

I made the first thread in this series language of Tonal music, this is the second the language of Modal music, there will be a third language of Poly-tonal, and a fourth language of Atonal music. ( these, all in the context of 12 tone ET)
that way it is easier to look at each for what they are even though there are ways to integrate them,
understanding them individually is the only way to put the knowledge all together to have a fuller understanding.( especially for a beginner early in their understanding)

My concern about randomly talking about poly-tonal or atonal on this thread is confusion by a reader that is early in their stages of learning about it all and just confuse the hell out of them.

the goal is to avoid having sparatic chunks of knowledge in the separate languages while having big gaps leading to misunderstandings where it all comes together for a greater understanding.
the topics are complex enough that it may not be possible for some people to avoid having that problem ,but I feel it is important to at least attempt avoiding that problem of big gaps leading to misunderstandings. I try to refine these languages in such a way as to have a layman reader understand and use it immediatley, without being held back by terminologies and other music theory difficulties.
the idea is pragmatic. the majority of individuals reading through these threads on the languages will be using them for modern genres and electronica, i just want them to at least be able use as much as possible, given they won't normally be going through music theory in its complex entirety.
Hopefully they can skim through find useful information they can use in an instant and it will keep them wanting to find more and more out little at a time ( those that would normally despise a discussion about music theory and music history)

 

Last edited: Dec 18, 2017