The Language of Modal Music.

Discussion in 'Education' started by MMJ2017, Dec 12, 2017.

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do you feel that MODAL and tonal langauges of music are vastly different?

  1. yes

    8 vote(s)
    42.1%
  2. no

    6 vote(s)
    31.6%
  3. huh?

    5 vote(s)
    26.3%
  1. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Modal music is a language that comes out of tonal music. instead of having a tonic home and dissonant dominant chord that everything else is related to, modal music allows for each mode of the major key to be its own entity. modal music allows for more complex feelings to be expressed and even for a more sparse type of musical structure to be made.
    like with the language of tonal music, the language of MODAL music begins with the circle of fifths.
    [​IMG]

    lets begin with C major KEY we have the notes C D E F G A B
    this gives us 7 MODES. that in the language of MODAL music are each unique and express their own chord and their own melodies and harmonies.( in Tonal music you have I and V the rest are equivalents of those 2. in Modal music each one is unique and expresses its own flavor.)

    1. IONIAN C D E F G A B C
    2.DORIAN D E F G A B C D
    3.PHRYGIAN E F G A B C D E
    4. LYDIAN F G A B C D E F
    5.MIXOLYDIAN G A B C D E F G
    6.AEOLIAN A B C D E F G A
    7. LOCRIAN B C D E F G A B.

     
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  3. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    In MODAL music , each one of these MODES can be used as the basis for a song or section of a song.
    lets look now at the circle of fifths once more to learn how the circle of fifths teaches us the order of britness to darkness of each one of these MODES contained in the C major key.
    [​IMG]
    starting from F we have FCGDAEB (clockwise around the circle)
    LYDIAN is the brightest of the modes ,LOCRIAN is the darkest of the modes ( from major scale)from bright to dark

    Lydian
    Ionian
    Mixolydian
    Dorian
    Aeolian
    Phrygian
    Locrian

    lets begin with the MAJOR types of modes including some not in the major scale.we start with Ionian and modify our intervals from it as a starting basis. these modes basis are the 1,3,5,7

    Ionian ---------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
    Lydian ---------- 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
    Lydian AUG------1 2 3 #4 # 5 6 7
    Ionian AUG ------1 2 3 4 #5 6 7
    Major Pent-------1 2 3 5 6
    Major blues.......1 2 -3 3 5 6
    Augmented........1 #2 3 5 #5 7

    Lets next look at our Minor types of modes these modes are based on 1,-3,-7 the modes will gradually get darker

    Dorian...........1 2 -3 4 5 6 -7
    Aeolian..........1 2 -3 4 5 -6 -7
    Phrygian.........1 -2 -3 4 5 -6 -7
    --------------------------------------------------
    Locrian...........1 -2 -3 4 -5 -6 -7
    Tonic Diminished.1 2 -3 4 -5 -6 - -7 -7
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Melodic minor...1 2 -3 4 5 6 7
    Harmonic minor.1 2 -3 4 5 -6 7
    Minor Pentatonic.1 -3 4 5 -7
    Minor Blues.......1 -3 4 #4 5 -7
    Dorian flat2......1 -2 -3 4 5 6 -7
    Dorian #4.........1 2 -3 #4 5 6 -7

    Lets next look at our Dominant chords and modes are based on 1,3,-7

    Mixolydian.............1 2 3 4 5 6 -7
    Mix #11same as(#4)..1 2 3 #4 5 6 -7
    Dominant diminished.1 -2 -3 3 #4 5 6 -7
    Altered Dominant.....1 -2 -3 3 #4 #5 -7
    Alt Dom................1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7
    Whole Tone.............1 2 3 #4 #5 -7
    Mixolydian flat6........1 2 3 4 5 -6 -7
    Phrygian Major.........1 -2 3 4 5 -6 -7

    follow this video to cover this material as shown.

     
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  4. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Now lets discuss the differences between tonal music language and modal music language.
    so that we can begin to see how to use modal music language.

    the language of tonal music says that you begin with home I from major key and next have your dominant or dissonance chord V chord
    ALL the other modes and chords are a representation of these 2 ( tonic,dominant) in tonal music language I=iii=vi ,[ V=vii%, {ii=IV}] this means you always have a I and V , all other chords and modes are substitutes for these FUNCTIONS of home and away from home (dominant).
    the language of Modal music removes the function of tonic and dominant ( through the use of devices) so that each mode is its own unique expression (what makes it unique and different from another) in modal music there are not just 2 options ( home,away from home) instead you use different techniques (will be discussed here) to take away the function of tonic and dominant, so that each of the 7 modes (as well as the others discussed ) are their own entitys. to be used even as a basis for a song , or by switching to other modes and keys to make more complex changes .
    the language of modal music is characterized by using ambiguity, instead of how tonal music is characterized by function.
    what this means is that the language of modal music is built from what tonal music was, however opens up to many more expressions than what was available in tonal music. ( there are some positives and negatives as you will see about modal music) modal music can express different feelings and flavors than tonal music.

    in tonal music we take a key and then a mode of that key and build up our chords by 3rds say I of C major
    CEGBDFA and the V or 5th GBDFACE

    however in modal music, one device that is possible to begin to use the language of modal music such that we take away that sense of FUNCTION ( the tension of gbdf (tritone [bdf] resolving to CEG) we remove this sound of function by building our chords in fourths.
    in modal language we can build chords in fourths and have each chord represent many different chords based on ambiguity

    Modal chords.

    chord EADGC can be these chords

    C6/9
    Fmaj13
    Am11
    Dsus9
    Bflatmajor13#11

    EADGC first inversion ADGCE

    some modal chords

    EADGC chord C6/9
    BEADG C maj9
    ADGCF Dm11
    BFADG G9
    BFEAD G13

    Quartal ii V to I ( borrowing a tonal music progression yet removing the function to make it modal in order to make the music itself come across entirely different feeling)

    Dm11 (ADGCF) ,G9 (BFADG, Cmaj9 (BEADG), Dm11, (ADGCF) G13, (FBEAD) ,C 6/9 (EADGC)

    here we can borrow from the tonal music language with our chord progression and our melody and use unique language from modal language to build these chords from fourths and begin to create music that expresses very different than functional harmony of tonal music. (we must understand tonal music language first, to then expand into using modal music language.

    this technique of building chords in fourths or quartal chords gives us an ability to start using modal music language EVEN by taking a traditional tonal music song and converting it to modal music.

    Quartal Voicings can be any chord if it does not have the modes(chords) avoid notes

    Avoid Notes
    ----------------------
    Cmaj7 = F (Ionian)
    Dm7-= B (dorian)
    Em7=F and C (phrigian)
    Fmaj7= none (lydian)
    G7- = C (mixolydian)
    Am7 = F (aeolian)
    Bmin7-5 = C (locrian)



    EADGC missing F and B allowable chords C 6/9 Dm11 Am11 Fmaj13
    FBEAD missing G and C allowable chords G13, Bmin7-5 ,Fmaj7#11, Dmin 6/9
    GCFBE missing A and D allowable chords G7sus, Famj7#11,
    ADGCF missing B and E allowable chords Dm11, F6/9
    BEADG missing C and F allowable chords C maj13, Em11, B min7-5, , Fmaj13#11
    CFBEA missing D and G allowable chords G7sus, Fmaj7#11
    DGCFB missing E and A allowable chords G7sus, Fmaj#11

    to take any one of these voicings and to actually make it represent any particular chord over another one it could possibly represent, all you have to do is play a melody over the chord that fits a particular mode. ex. if you play EADGC and you want it to be a Dm11 you play a melody from D dorian DEFGABCD , if instead you wanted the same chord EADGC to represent Fmaj13 , you play a melody based on F lydian or FGABCDEF, when you then switch to another chord follow the same steps . try it yourself now!








    even though these videos are talking about jazz genre( characterized by certain swing rhythm and sounds of instruments) what is important to us here regarding language of modal music, has nothing to do with what is unique to jazz you can use this language to create anything electronica rock salsa funk blues anything the jazz reference in the videos is not the information important to us looking at the videos in this context.

    here is an image of the avoid notes of the modes, we avoid them so that the chords we create using fourths can represent any number of actual chords based on the melody we create at the time of using the particular chord.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    lets look now at some short videos demonstrating some modes and listen to how it expresses a unique flavor.




     
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  6. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    please spend a short time watching these videos where you can hear the sounds themselves its very important to understanding what makes modal language unique on its own.
     
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  7. foster911

    foster911 Guest

    I think instead of generalizations and encouraging people to learn sth, better first post the music examples that have been produced by the people who were fully aware of that language. I'm kinda sure if you post any music here, people unanimously would say I don't like it and if people don't like anything wouldn't try to learn it. One day people were in love with these music but today, tastes have changed and I'm not sure they'd be persuaded to follow it no matter how lofty it's.:dunno:
     
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  8. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    here another famous song that uses modal music language

    and its modal language seen here

    you can see the choices made to construct the song remove the FUNCTION that Tonal music has, and uses the ambiguity of Modal music language to express the song .
    techniques used are reusing a chord to establish the sound to the listener through repetition.
    and melodies ( notes of the mode) over the chord of the mode. in order to establish musical detail these are common techniques in modal music language used all the time.
    another technique that is really important to make sure the music does not feel like tonal music to the listener is to remove the close dissonant intervals of the dominant chord the (gbdf) to ceg ( basis of tonal music) to make the music modal "floating" you spread the sound out making it feel like it does not need to resolve that it can just exists as its own sound before changing to the new sound. this is done hear the amin chord goes to dmin chord and even though the higher leody when on the amin chord outlines a c maj triad ( or amin7 chord as a whole) the intervals are aligned in as uch a way to feel not close together look at he the dim portion there is a g in the melody put higher interval so as not to FUNCTION as a dominant chord that has to resolve like in tonal music, but instead spaced in a way that feels "floating" or just existing with no need to resolve. we can see all these contained in the modal language choices made in the construction of this song.
    even in the final sound design on the song the choices made the frequencies and instruments chosen all fit with the floating aspect that modal music language has, even though you can clearly see that the starting point is related to tonal music language, ( being able to use progressions substitutes melodies etc that originate from tonal music, except removing that most important part of tonal music language, the strong feeling on consonance to dissonance)
     
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  9. 23322332

    23322332 Producer

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    Foster, all of the music composed worldwide in the history of mankind is modal (but not "tonal" - if we call this the major-minor key system used 16-18 century in Western Europe or based on just on the diatonic modes of the major scale).

    On harmonic function (quoting the history of Western music theory):

    "
    It was Riemann who coined the term function in Vereinfachte Harmonielehre (1893) to
    describe relations between dominant and subdominant harmonies and the referential
    tonic: he borrowed the word from mathematics, where it was used to designate the correlation
    of two variables, an argument and a value."



    FaC (fifth down) <- CeG ->(fifth up) GbD
    Subdom Tonic - Dominant

    You don't need tritones for dominant function.

    Only Aeolian (natural minor) has similar symmetry - it is based on 3 minor triads as opposed to Ionian's 3 major triads, but doesn't sound as decisive for a finalis, so picardy thirds were used and that later led to developing of the major/minor key system (aka western tonality).

    If we continue this chain of major chords - we see that the pitch class D appears in Bbmajor:

    Bb (d -F a Ce-G b D)

    D and d differ by syntonic comma and are the reason why we can't have perfect harmony in just tuning without tempering.
    These enharmonics create a psychological unity - it's easy to see why Dorian is symmetrical on a log scale.

    While the shape of the diatonic scale as a whole can be generated by stacking of fifths (or fourths) modulo octaves, only the major and nat minor modes are harmonically relevant using simple fifths relations.

    Why is fifth important?

    Octave is doubling the frequency - fifth is 3/2 = 1.5
    1 - 1.5 - 2

    So, it's the arithmetic mean.

    If you know some statistics, you will know that square root of 2 - the tritone is the

    (will finish when I have more time, bye guys, I wanted to write how more about about modal scales and alternatives to western diatonic scale in the microtonal world, but don't have time now)
     
  10. Olymoon

    Olymoon Impossible is not a fact. It is an opinion. Staff Member

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    Best Answer
    To answer the poll:
    "do you feel that MODAL and tonal languages of music are vastly different?"

    I don't feel a vast difference, I feel both as different approaches to what, at the end, are subjectively organized notes, this is what music is.
    I feel both approaches as complementary, but when composing I basically use my ears and let subjectivity flow. I only use these approaches if I feel blocked at some point.

    The same goes for playing/ soloing.. I may first study a piece using both approaches, and then "forget it" and go for the piece "intuitively" obviously with the influence of this prior study.

    The more I integrate modal language, the more I feel the intricacy of both languages and that finally it's all one big language.
     
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  11. foster911

    foster911 Guest

    Man! I behold your kind remarks as generosity and grace. Thank you!:bleh:

    Music isn't science that can be be expressed by man-made formulas or languages. Even in science nothing as certainty exists. Music is like psychology or other liberal arts' fields that is changing by new generation's new attitudes (I doubt you consider the new generation as human:bleh:). Some features are unchangeable for decades (but after that will change) and some others are changing at the light speed like software.

    Music isn't mere pitches. In the past before the advent of sampling and new electronic sounds and tools, people didn't have any choices except looking at the music as discrete pitches. How many sounds were available for the 19th century's folk and before that? Also their notation system is based on pitches.

    Music is more than pitches and people trying to see anything in pitches or rhythm and neglecting other aspects of music are duping themselves and others. Be sure some decades later keyboard's shape will change globally and 12-TET will join to the history when our ears would discover other things than pitches by listening to music.:hillbilly:
     
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  12. Cordelay

    Cordelay Ultrasonic

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    Please excuse my english, I'll try to state my opinions on the matter.

    I think the main issue is that when you are introducing a musical concept it's nice and helps your side of the argument to present clear musical examples where everybody can hear the point you are trying to make.
    Your three examples revolve around minor chord progressions: Rockstar in G minor, Gucci Gang in A minor and Believer also in A minor or harmonic minor (depending on the school of analysis the E/G#, though based in Harmonic Minor, could be just the dominant of the minor key, so no modal mood per se).

    When I try to teach students about the sound of modes or modal interchange I try to pick songs that present clear examples of modes, whatever the style is, from the top of my head these are a couple of songs I use:

    - James Blake's Overgrown sounds a bit like Gregorian Chants because it's based in the Dorian mode
    - Sweet Child O'Mine first three chords are a clear example of a Mixolydian chord progression
    - Eye in the Sky by Alan Parson's Project presents many modal interchanges that fit and contrast nicely with the Major and Minor moods in the song.

    For those musicians, producers, etc having trouble hearing differences between modes it's a great exercise to try and compose something around the specific chords that appear in the three major modes and then doing the same with the three minor modes:

    For example, in major you could have something like this:

    || C | % | D/F# | F | C | Gm ||

    Maybe too many chords crammed in only six bars, but it serves the point. The Modal chords would be D/F# coming from C Lydian and Gm coming from C Mixolydian. You can hear the difference in "brightness" going from Sharper to Flatter (Lydian -> Major -> Mixolydian). Maybe this could work better in a composition giving more room to each mode if needed.

    Lastly, while I agree that in certain ambiguous chord progressions or even static chords using the avoid notes can and will define modality (as Rick Beato says in one of his videos: "Don't avoid the avoid notes!"), I don't think the modal color is noticeable enough if the mode used is Major or Minor, even when using (or not) melodic resolutions to your advantage.

    Interesting topic indeed, it's funny that every year there are more well educated musicians and on the other hand the I V VIm IV and variations are more and more prominent, I guess it's a glass half-full / half-empty matter...
     
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  13. Cordelay

    Cordelay Ultrasonic

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    When I'm composing and I have a melody based on few notes I can intuitively try to spice the chord progression to make it sound "snappier", "sadder", "gloomier"; just like when I'm cooking someting I might use something like Ginger or Cinnamon to spice it up.
    Nothing wrong with cooking pasta with tomato sauce, but eating everyday the same might bore some people tastebuds...
    Cheers
     
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  14. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    we can see an example between tonal ,modal,and poly-tonal using the same progression to see one example of how they can stand out as different from each other.
    the fact that the writer begins with a ii V I concept has nothing to do whether it is tonal or modal languages(in this case also poly-tonal language)
    Modal language softens and reduces dominant to tonic (goal of tonal language)
    in Modal language, each mode floats and exists on its own there is no dominant to tonic, that every chord represents, in modal each note of a melody is not following the dominant to tonic that tonal music has for each melody and each chord change.
     
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  15. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    foster911
    the point of this is to give people options at whatever point they are writing at. for them to be able to think to themselves ( oh , wow i can do 50 different things which one do i want to go with to express so and so that i want it to come out so and so way.
    is that difficult for you to see?

    if YOU (anyone) reads on this thread or any other, and think to yourself
    ("you know this is not helpful to ME in any way at any time")
    that is okay with me im not force feeding you, its just for people that want to never have writers block and for people that want to have many options for creativity.
    for people that want to know in their mind many ways to create feeling s and emotions from the listener .
    if its not helpful to YOU(the reader) i accept that.
    the point of the thread is for the people that it IS helpful for.
    (still, feel free to express anything you think is important , EVEN IF it is not helpful to you at all.)
    I just want YOU (reader) to understand the point of this thread and others like it.

    this sentence is demonstrably false from millions of independent facts about reality that i am able to see. how are you able to see that sentence as "accurate about the reality we find ourselves in"?

    i don't remember anyone saying that music IS mere pitches.
    in fact if you read this thread and the language of tonal music thread and the secrets of music hard find techniques thread, millions of things besides pitches are talked about, search those threads for the word "pitches".

    but , what about the part of music that IS about pitches? you want to be oblivious to that aspect of it? i don't.

    you think 12 tone et is on any type of decline? i dont see it in reality itself on a decline at all.

    foster911 , is your opinion that ignorance ( definition of the word lack of knowledge)
    that ignorance and knowledge are the same? or do you think ignorance and knowledge are opposite?
    do you want to be operated on by a doctor that approaches medicine from a perspective of total ignorance that " human body isnt about cells, organs blood and tissue" that he thinks the human body is about "positive thinking"

    foster911 , is there a part of your thought process that has a concept "there is a way things actually work" (i call this reality) as opposed to fiction ( if i think right now a man with 427,345 arms with a tennis racket in each hand chasing a rat 45 feet tall) do you think there is a difference between those two? or to you is any thought of a fictional character identical to a real person that is alive and exists?
    the point is music is a certain way in reality, there is a way it works that we have to learn about, it just does not intuitive come to us form meditating in caves , just like medicine works a certain way, engineering works a certain way.
    anything real we have to find out about ( we call this learning or knowledge,) it is much different than fantasy or imagination. to myself i want to learn about music the way it actually exists as in reality .( i can imagine a alternate dimension where music works differently instead of sound waves , say gravity waves and there are 88 octaves the low brown note knocks the wind out of you
    and you can use music to row a boat. we just dont live in that imagined world)
     
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  16. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    some creative ways to use modal language

    it helps you to understand that your adding triads ( the sound of one triad lower, then one triad higher) then adding together
    depending on what modes you want to outline you get some unique sounds.


    now use these modes to practice

    Ionian ---------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
    Lydian ---------- 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
    Lydian AUG------1 2 3 #4 # 5 6 7
    Ionian AUG ------1 2 3 4 #5 6 7
    Major Pent-------1 2 3 5 6
    Major blues.......1 2 -3 3 5 6
    Augmented........1 #2 3 5 #5 7

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Dorian...........1 2 -3 4 5 6 -7
    Aeolian..........1 2 -3 4 5 -6 -7
    Phrygian.........1 -2 -3 4 5 -6 -7
    --------------------------------------------------
    Locrian...........1 -2 -3 4 -5 -6 -7
    Tonic Diminished.1 2 -3 4 -5 -6 - -7 -7
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Melodic minor...1 2 -3 4 5 6 7
    Harmonic minor.1 2 -3 4 5 -6 7
    Minor Pentatonic.1 -3 4 5 -7
    Minor Blues.......1 -3 4 #4 5 -7
    Dorian flat2......1 -2 -3 4 5 6 -7
    Dorian #4.........1 2 -3 #4 5 6 -7
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Mixolydian.............1 2 3 4 5 6 -7
    Mix #11same as(#4)..1 2 3 #4 5 6 -7
    Dominant diminished.1 -2 -3 3 #4 5 6 -7
    Altered Dominant.....1 -2 -3 3 #4 #5 -7
    Alt Dom................1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7
    Whole Tone.............1 2 3 #4 #5 -7
    Mixolydian flat6........1 2 3 4 5 -6 -7
    Phrygian Major.........1 -2 3 4 5 -6 -7

    the technique of adding triads is another tool to add ( as well as quartal fourth chords as discussed earlier) and also the use of repetition to establish a center.
     
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  17. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    thanks for speaking on this with me sir.
    I felt like that for my youth,(i had no exposure to jazz or the styles that led to jass and jazz) and then i got real interested in studying music history and development, at first out of curiosity(i came from rock background)and my interest was mostly classical music, but studying music and as i studied into the 1800's and then into the 1900's something happened to me something changed me. learning the genres that came before jazz, then the slaves in usa were freed they brought every genre together to create this new thing Jass music ( would become jazz) the improvisation is an expression of freedom. and i dont know something stuck with me when studying this period of like 1800's to 1950. i just went over it over and over agin and listening and my ear what heard changing, (my ear for music was horrible when i first began studying the time period.) for example a 7th chord (which is only 4 notes at the same time) sounded real "blurry" to me but more i listened to jazz and that time period and began to understand the music, my ear heard better. i could hear 4 and 5 notes clearer, like each note inside and a whole new three dimensional depth of music opened up to me that i wasn't aware of before that.by that point i just realized that i had an interest in that time period and jazz and began studying everything about it i could, from the musicians, how the music itself works the improvisation the language of the music styles. and after a while when i broke down how it all works my ear just makes perfect sense of it. for example now when i hear jazz everything that is in say C major key (all 7 chords and variations) sounds so my ear NOW like 1 note ringing would have early in my childhood. the note changes when the KEY changes its the underline structure I can hear it perfectly clear, one byproduct of that is a real simple song to me ears sound like nothing is happening just a single note Ringing for 5 minutes.

    the purpose of improvisation is the purpose of being a human being. to express yourself in a moment of time. to have the freedom to express making a choice. the point of improvisation musically is that the moment you decide on what you want to express you can express it instantly , instead of taking 6 months to write a section of a song with improvisation you can do it is 20 seconds what other take a year or 2 to write.THAT is the point of it.
    i dont understand the question. by "going that way?" what are you asking exactly? why people dont copy every little nuance of the past style of jazz? because you dont need to in order to take the best aspects of it.and use it for your own identity.
    its just because your ear is developed to a certain point of what your own ears are able to decipher. i was like that at one point when i played mostly metal i could hear 2 note chords the tonic and fifth that was my ear development for long time.
    I can only describe it from the place that i am at right now and that is the way my ear hears music those melodies are not different, any melody built from the C major key sounds like one note ringing out to me, if you then go to G major and F major keys that is only a slight change to my ear (21 chords so far)if we just look at all the melodies that the 21 chords of F,C and G major KEYS my ear only hears three notes going on even though 21 chords and playing all their varieties of melodies.
    you know how our vision is? say RED all the variations of black to white and grey of RED i see that its still one color sound is like that to me now. when i hear 7 note chords say CEGBDFA C maj13 it sounds the same as just C note by itself just like the bright RED and VIVID RED vs a greyish RED or an ORANGISH or yellowish RED or a whiteish RED, that how my ear hears music. to me one note after another in a melody, is same as stacking all the notes together is the same as playing the KEY note byitself (different flavors of same thing.) so in jazz when i hear 10 melodies in C major KEY, i hear a steady note ringing out just like if you see with your eyes 150 shades of RED in an image is not any more distorted than a flyer with one shade of RED my friend.
    improvisation to me has the same meaning now as it did when i played a limited types of music and heard very limited ear for music, it is just now that my ear is more developed i can choose among hundreds of options at any point in time each moment i go to write or play live or compose its just seeing all the options i have and choosing based on how i want it to come out feeling.
    I dont think that is true, what i think is true, is that we are living in a time where everything is available, you search for any type of thing and you can find it, ALL of it exists at ANY time at EACH moment.

    here is a ear training tool just for fun (anyone reading)
    in your daw make a succession of chords on piano first
    F(in 3 octaves), next FAC next FACE next FACEGBD next FACEGBDF# next FACEGBDF#A#C#E#G#B#D#(all 12 notes stacked in that order)

    where as it plays through you are hearing more tense version of the chords listen very closely with your ears
    to me FACEGBD sounds same as F note and the same as FAC and the same as FACE( just a different flavor) work your way to FACEGBDF#A#C#E#G#B#D#
    I really want to thank you for speaking on this topic fine sir.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  18. crecy

    crecy Kapellmeister

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    Both are more related than we think: think of the similarities and differences between J.S. Bach and K. Stockhausen or in plastic arts, the difference in works from Da Vinci and J. Pollock. Despite regional or cultural differences in music and art, a large part of the phenomenon is universal. Inspiration and intuition find their way either through the box or out of the box. That's the beauty and mystery in it for me.
     
  19. Mynock

    Mynock Rock Star

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    Hello there MMJ2017, I would like to suggest that you continue your exposure aware of the fact that any post referring to generalizations on a greater or smaller scale applied to music will be trolled by these guys (the concept of trolling - "The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous, and/or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help. Trolling requires decieving; any trolling that doesn't involve decieving someone isn't trolling at all; it's just stupid. As such, your victim must not know that you are trolling; if he does, you are an unsuccesful troll)".

    Postmodern academics on duty/sympathizers always tend to consider statistical studies referring to stylistic patterns related to accessible genres as low-brow activities 'cos they insist on dictating how people should enjoy inaccessible music (perhaps because the music of their preference has no appeal to the masses or market). Immersed in their tiring militancy, they simply ignore the fact that, for the general public, not everything has to do with innovation, breaking established milestones and avant garde/experimental music research. I even think it is a lack of purpose to criticize a post that deals with (some partial aspect of) the schematic nature of modal music and the two possible motivations are not self-excluding: trolling and/or ideological indoctrination.

    I really like your posts and comments, plus you are a very polite person. But, if you judge it applicable, do not waste time and energy in vain and stay focused on what motivates you. All the best, always!
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  20. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    for me a piece of music is like a spoken sentence, there is no such thing as your best sentence. any particular sentence is built and put together to represent a topic a point of view and expression. you draw from your entire spoken language and put together one sentence to accomplish communication of a specific topic and context.
    THIS is why music and types of music are literally a language. any particular choice to what you play or compose or record is identical to a sentence in those ways i have described. the idea that you have a "best" sentence is hard to make sense out of. however you could rate it against set criteria to see how it holds up.
    is the sentence relevant to the topic?
    does the sentence express clearly?
    does the content of the sentence match with the way things really work?
    does it tap into humor?

    just like for the sentence Music is so broad there cannot be a "best" piece.
    I would think of grading a piece of music in similar ways.
    how well does it match the initial set criteria for expectations?
    a 12 tone serial piece played to a person expecting 2017 pop music will do poorly.
    a micro-tonal piece played to a person expecting to hear tonal language music from 1800's will do poorly.
    there always has to be a context to have meaning and to make any decision on quality.

    thats easy just compare your own work to hundreds of histories well regarded musicians composers , compare your work to the ones that stand out in history the best of this year the best every year going back as far as you want in any genre or field you choose.




    there a couple for you to compare





    I don't consider myself "academic" regarding music.
    I think of it like this.
    the brain surgeon that actually learned the way the brain works and the body works, vs a person entirely ignorant which one will succeed? a carpenter that hates tape measures and all tools, VS a engineer that uses everything at their disposal. pick any profession the ignorant one vs the one that cares about how things work in that area that wants to advance themselves in any way possible.
    there is a fact i can think of that comes to mind

    Ignorance is bad, knowledge is good 100 percent of the time in this reality we are actually in.(all other things equal)

    we look down on ignorance SO much, the word has become to mean an insult in slang terms.
    we don't just consider the definition of ignorance bad.
    we take offense if it is used to describe us
    that says a lot about the reality we found ourselves in.
    take for example i can describe your own choices as willfully ignorant, but that just describes reality ( that you have made choices to not have understanding about the ways that music works)
    but because the vast difference between ignorance and knowledge. if i say lamb chop is willfully ignorant, it sounds almost like i am insulting you ( when in reality i am describing the instance of your free will regarding music knowledge)

    for some weird reason me wanting to have knowledge about music you describe as "academic"
    but what other areas would your thinking work like that with?
    if i have knowledge about how my thoughts or feelings work is that "academic"? that's just knowing what you need to know, if i have knowledge about needing to eat a certain amount to survive that is not "academic" its just barely surviving.
    having knowledge in music can't hurt anything about you, anything you can already do well with it will get better and you will be able do much more than before, everything improves for you ( from your own perspective after you can look back and compare not having the knowledge to having it)
    this is last im going to go on about stuff not directly related to Modal language.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  21. Utada Hikaru

    Utada Hikaru Kapellmeister

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    Please never stop posting this kind of threads MMJ2017!
    Among all the examples people have already posted above, here is mine, a masterpiece of electronic music history composed in C minor Dorian Mode:

    I really believe its Modal tone is one of the reasons this piece is so unique.
     
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