The Label EDM & the demise of uniqueness

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by Retrolize77, Jan 14, 2018.

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  1. spyfx

    spyfx Guest

    @dadarkman oh i see what you're saying yes :wink: :bow:,please also understand that i was a bit tired when i was writing that & sleepless ( my dog is a bit sick for the past few days & been up all night)
    also please consider this for a moment : The music of the Prodigy,Chemical Brothers(Dust),Fatboy Slim is not simply electronica...
    it was called Big Beat at a time...Electronica or electronic music is a more broad term :wink:
    but before this gets silly ...
    for me its all MUSIC & A WONDERFUL FEELING
    thanks :wink:
     
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  2. Retrolize77

    Retrolize77 Audiosexual

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    I like music the most when there‘s a good balance between product placement & inner expression, so I always been a bit wary with music I get out of the radio/ tv, cause for me, the most interesting & empowering Trends came out of the underground. That’s why I’m not into the commercial side of music that much , although every musician want to eat, so it’s a question of balance & quality for sure. Due to not knowing that much about the trend /genre I entitled this post with, I should have made this lack of Knowledge more clear, no doubt @dadarkman
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  3. Backtired

    Backtired Rock Star

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    wait... since when north america is relevant in (real) dance music? :bleh:
     
  4. spyfx

    spyfx Guest

    since the great & sacred native american tribes :wink: :bow:
     
  5. Retrolize77

    Retrolize77 Audiosexual

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    Side info: One of the first pre-bigbeat hybrid I can remember, everybody went crazy over that tune , came from the underground back then, from then relatively unknown house artist armand van helden, who was a Zulu-nation member (Afrika bambaata) sampling redman

     
  6. Backtired

    Backtired Rock Star

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    can't disagree with that! but obviously i meant the modern united states of america :P (before anyone jumps on me, /jk)
    you are familiar with Alcatraz by Peyote (dance2trance basically)? timeless track
     
  7. taskforce

    taskforce Audiosexual

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    Well... that is the popular/hit side of things actually.
    First of all i gotta say to all the wikipedia fans that Wikis rarely cover the entire truth or give props to all those who are meant to be given.
    So here's a little, i hope informative trip down memory lane.
    In 1996, Big beat had already been an underground dj favorite from labels like Wall of Sound who were releasing amazing 12" through 1994 and 1995. Wall of Sound's main influence seems to have been the early 90s Ninja Tune givings which although always leaned towards more free form funk and jazz brakes, they helped create the big beat sound too, dare i say, to me, Coldcut and NinjaTune were the first originators of that sound.
    The unique logo and cover artwork, along with a different altogether sound, helped WoS establish a following from their very first handful of 12" releases. When WoS released their first compilation "Give 'em enough dope" in 1994 (paraphrasing Clash's album "Give 'em enough rope"), with Kruder and Dorfmeister,Mekon & Howie B in it, and "Back to mono" in '95 with Les Rhythms Digitales, the Wiseguys and Pressure Drop to name a few, the impact on the electronic scene was tremendous. The sound although sometimes close to what's now known as trip hop, was different to the other acts that are considered to influence and create what is called big beat like The Prodigy, Chemical Bros and USA's Crystal Method. It was funkier and more close to instrumental hip hop with emphasis on heavier beats, while fusing any kind of other genres through clever sampling and/or live instrumentation. Norman Cook switched from his endless aliases to Fat Boy Slim doing his own version of the same thing in '96 with Skint Recs and many others followed too.
    1996's Van Helden's track, although no doubt it's an amazing track, is still, to those who know the score, kind of a derivative track, fek even Madonna had a shot at this with "Music" cashing on Van Helden's success, who in his own right was following the underground trend while taking the Wall Of Sound raw sound to a more polished dance approach and eventually the charts and bigger dancefloors.

    So what does this have to do with EDM ? Simple. The whole EDM thing is similarly derivative. EDM, is sort of a hoax term in its genesis, to its core is a continuation of the easy listening prog house/euro "trance" played by acts like Tiesto, VanBuuren etc or even earlier prog house from Oakenfold, Chicane etc etc. The whole "naming" thing had already gone terribly wrong in late 90's-early 2ks when many of the prog house releases started to be named as trance. Trance (and i don't mean psy trance), is a different harder beast, much closer to techno, which for the sake of the readers here i will not extend upon. There was nothing "trance" in those cheesy commercial dance tracks. You can sum them all in Am,F,G,C,Em,Dm-period. And this sum is exactly the same as the majority of EDM is today. Same thing, louder mixes, less originality, more synth layers lol. I understand the artists' & labels' need for commerciality and i can understand those who like the easy cheesy euphoric progressions in this particular sound. What i don't understand is how this totally derivative sound can be acknowledged as something new, because it isn't. Just like this Tropical House craze which is again a cheesy happy version of the Balearic House sub-genre of the late 80s-early 90s, which if nothing else, was more interesting, musically investigative and quite diverse.
    Please don't get me wrong. This is not about nostalgia. I enjoy today's music as much as the past's. I just feel that because of the whole music industry archetype collapsing, labels don't care about introducing innovative or (put any adjective you like here) artists anymore, at least not before they grow a following by themselves, so although there can be loads of massmedia exposure, imho many of the "better" artists have less chances to be heard in a whirlpool of millions of youtube/itunes wannabes.
    My post is not meant to offend any artists, known or unknown. To this extent i consider myself being one of them. I always stood strongly behind the belief that there is a place and a crowd for any style of music even the most experimental. I have witnessed the facts of great hit music to be fanatically hated by the purists and great underground music to be blatantly neglected by the masses.
    What we need is better education for all the people, so those who care, can be able to distinguish and correctly pinpoint the origins of what they hear.
    Y'all be well, thanks for baring with me :)
    PS: In '96 Van Helden was not unknown, mainly because of 94's "Witch Doktor" single (and other EPs as well) which had already made waves in all dancefloors in Europe and reaching Billboard #3 in the US dance chart. And to my knowledge he was never a member of Bambaata's Zulu Nation formed around '77-78, at that time VanHelden must 've been 7-8 yo.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  8. Retrolize77

    Retrolize77 Audiosexual

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    Like the Native American culture, as well as their percussive instrument.
    Dj dag /ffm was a big part in Germany of shaping trance to new Hights implementing kind of the spirit & percussive meditative elements of the Native Americans early nineties.
    If u like his work check Dr Baker- vie la vie, and volunteers - sundown.
    Also on eye q records a big hit breaked by Sven vaeth was brainchild’s synfonica. To make a creative transitions to this let’s call it EDM thread, it was the first trance song with fast changin chords in a classical way, could be interesting as you may be able to implement this style using xfers cuthulu
     
  9. Retrolize77

    Retrolize77 Audiosexual

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    Maybe this thread now can lead towards a good direction, as been helpful to show/maybe analyze methods from the last decades of electronic music that really shaped it to be where it is now, a creative inspirational force & enjoyment for billions of people on this planet. Would that be a nice connection for different generations & attempt to learn from another, in terms of cultural identity, different vibes, and really producing techniques to help every1 involved perfecting his craft. That would be a nice positive switch of polarity of this whole thread, cause it started as an unfiltered emotional complain in a way from me, but I’m a very optimistic constructive person always trying to involve as much people in good projects to get the best out of every1 in a let’s say Jedi kind of way !!
     
  10. dadarkman

    dadarkman Producer

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    I used to be the defender-in-chief in forums for Dance music culture, hahahah!! Then I got to find out quickly that I was wasting my time the worst way possible. So, I revert to just read such threads and not answering or engaging myself. Nowadays, I try to avoid the full head-on debate. Instead, I just try to point mistakes and inaccuracy whenever possible. So, that's how I end up writing in this thread. Besides that, I know what this thread will turn into as it goes: A bashing of a Genre or one part of its sub-genre and that's not because you'd want it to. The usual "I-Hate-EDM" crowd or the know-it-all chord progression masters gonna come out to make their cases; it almost feels cool to do for some. However, it gets tiresome and always ends up being useless and repetitive of the same complaints, what-ifs, and personal wishes that slowly but surely replace the normal debate with a gang-up atmosphere. Well, hopefully I'm wrong on this this time around.

    For the large part of music history, almost all kinds of Genres or Sub-Genres of music did take a bashing to a certain degree: Ska, Jazz, Rock & Roll, Disco, Hip-Hop, Trap, Reggaeton, Dancehall, Metal, Pop and so on... EDM or whatever you wanna call it been merely the kid on the block taking the beating in the last 5 years or so. Soon enough another Genre will hold the trophy. Nothing new!
    I tell you what, If I start a thread bashing Zouk music which is non-existent in this forum, I'll somehow find people coming over to it to help me bash Zouk based on the 3 songs coming from their neighbor's speakers or the one artist they randomly bump into on YouTube. :rofl:

    Anyhow, listening and getting familiar with music from a very young age, I got to realize the following: A man's (and woman's) musical taste is not to be questioned nor challenged because it is that personal. That musical taste encompasses age, background, color, location, education and everything under the sun that matters for a beautiful survey. Then when I got to know how to produce the music itself, I told myself this: I produce music for the ones who want to like it as much as I do, NOT for the ones who are going to hate it. At this point, nothing else matters, only a handshake or wave to let them know it's OK to dislike the music while I'm turning my attention to the people who share my passion and excitement.

    Well, so far the thread still on point. Let's hope it stays so.

    End. 2 Cent :)
     
  11. spyfx

    spyfx Guest

    about my first post in this thread : what a "little" point mistakes and inaccuracy whenever possible can cause a "little" word :rofl:
    i wonder how many still don't know that there is an underground d&b scene in the U.S & are in or from the U.S.

    @taskforce well said my friend & thanks for mentioning Ninja Tune label here :bow: lot of dj food for thought

    never give it up people,love you all :wink: :bow: :



    goodbye :wink: :bow:
     
  12. SineWave

    SineWave Audiosexual

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    @taskforce That's what I was *not* talking about! :rofl:

    Well, kinda. I'm not that good with words.

    Big up, mate!

    Cheers!

    edit: this thread reminded me to revisit some of the 90s acts that I like, like Shpongle. Such great stuff, incredible rhythms, kinda tribal. Just... damn! :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  13. taskforce

    taskforce Audiosexual

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    I find nothing wrong in repeating the "same old song" if that's what one feels like, for the most part it's what i do too. Most music is recycling this way and along the way, through the friction something new arises every now and then. I love electronic dance music as much as i love jazz and funk and anything that can invoke a feeling in me. The whole point of my post was not to pose as a know it all master, but to indicate EDM is nothing new, just a recycling of sorts of the same uplifting "trance"/prog house euphoria of the mid to late 90s with a modern mix.
    I don't see how and why we should refrain from referring to chord progressions and melodies, since it's music we 're talking about and it's all inter-connected. Either way i would never bash on any genre just because it ain't my cup of tea. I 've much respect for all art forms. To be clear, reciting the majority of EDM as "cheesy" is not bashing, i love cheesy early electro and disco all night long lol. I will only take it with a grain of salt when i am served "canned products" (although as i mentioned i understand the "need" for their existence) instead of labors of love and creativity. And this stands for all kinds of music.
    Thanks a lot.
     
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  14. Retrolize77

    Retrolize77 Audiosexual

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    Hi,
    due to the contribution of all you fine guys i came to the conclusion, that the thread title is no longer adequate, for the provided content, cause it is leading towards a more negative way. And in this thread there is Rich historic info , and good advices how to stay relevant & creative, so i feel it’s time to close this thread. Thx to every1 involved for sharing info & speaking his heart, and very important for not getting rude, which is too easy in the internet, which just shows the quality of this forum.
    Have good times everybody
     
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