Suggestions on hardware build, please?

Discussion in 'Computer Hardware' started by Pinkman, Aug 3, 2020.

  1. Pinkman

    Pinkman Audiosexual

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    Hello my virtual loved ones.
    I'm building a new workstation and am going back to Windows because I can not, in my right mind, justify purchasing a new Apple device with all it's (hard/soft)ware constraints. I will miss the OS. Maybe enough to go Hackintosh but that's besides the point.

    The new build's motherboard/CPU will be either:
    MSI Z490M Edge WiFi (Intel Z490 mATX) [+] Intel Core i9 10900K
    or
    Gigabyte X570 AORUS Ultra (AMD X570 ATX DDR4) [+] AMD Ryzen 3900X

    I understand the pros and cons of having a higher core processor speed vs a higher number of cores/threads, especially in a DAW environment. I'm really looking for input from anyone who has real world usage info.
    Even if you don't have these specific models, just your experience with upgrading CPUs and what you've noticed as far as multicore effectiveness versus a higher clock speed in, but not limited to: Ableton 10, Reaper 6 and/or Reason 11. Anything you could tell me about any other software would help as I probably will be or am already using it. The above are just my go-tos.


    I'd list the rest of the components but it's not relevant and just gear porn at this point but basically it's:
    4 x 32GB DDR4 (speed depends on board), GPU with 4 outs and a 2 x 2TB PCI-E M.2 SSDs
    I know there are superior motherboards and processors out there but these are what's economically viable.

    Thank you in advance.
     
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  3. Hareesh S

    Hareesh S Ultrasonic

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    To be completely honest, yes, clock speeds are faster on the 10900k but both options are relatively in the same ballpark anyway, in terms of clocks and single core performance, that it really isn't worth opting for the 10900k when you can possibly have 2 more cores[4 more threads] that would eat up a performance deficit, if any. PERSONALLY, I would opt for the AMD platform. Go for a 3900XT if you can, that should close the gap even more(pretty sure it's meant to be the same price, or atleast similar). [I used to run FL, and now Ableton too]

    Piece of advice though, I would check the motherboard's PCI-E lane split up/config to see if you'd be able to use a GPU and 2 M.2 drives at full bandwidth, you might end up throttling the bandwidth to one of your M.2 drives.

    [Also, just wondering, you plan on installing 128 gigs? Damn!]

    EDIT: The processors you're looking at are at a level where realistically you can't go "wrong" with any of them. Look at the feature set, upgrade path, device support(Thunderbolt, etc) as well before making a decision!
     
  4. Polomo

    Polomo Audiosexual

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    https://www.cpubenchmark.net/[email protected]+3.70GHz&id=3633
    https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+9+3900X&id=3493
    In a direct contest the Ryzen is more than 30% Faster in this Test
    Intel Core i9 10900K 24002
    AMD Ryzen 9 3900X 32860



    Time Spy Extreme


    avg. Frametime
    Core i9 10900K
    6.124 Punkte 57,1 Millisekunden

    Ryzen 9 3900X
    6.570 Punkte 53,3 Millisekunden



    In gaming they nearly identical . (which is also an interesting point about single core Performance)

    So in many test the AMD will be better than the Intel ...

    But the AMD will cost less

    Yes there are test in which the Intel is faster but is it worth 200 € ?
    https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/6639723_-ryzen-9-3900x-amd.html
    https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/7043697_-core-i9-10900x-intel.html

    In my Opinion the AMD is the better Hardware and got more potential with the right Software updates .
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  5. akbarz

    akbarz Newbie

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    ryzen 4xxx will be out soon...
    if it's not necessary to build a pc right now, I recommend to just wait
     
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  6. Haliax

    Haliax Rock Star

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    The Intel here in this comparison is not as efficient in terms of power consumption than the Ryzen, which also means more heat and better cooling required for the Intel.
     
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  7. Pinkman

    Pinkman Audiosexual

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    Thanks all for responding.
    @Hareesh S I checked and the boards I listed shouldn't throttle with a GPU installed. Adding a third M.2 would disable SATA ports. Good looking out though, bro.
     
  8. Hareesh S

    Hareesh S Ultrasonic

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    Ohh great then! All the best with your build!
     
  9. taskforce

    taskforce Audiosexual

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    @Pinkman
    My greets bro, we haven't talked for a long time, i hope you are doing ok in these dark covid times with the lockdowns and all.
    About the mobo, i saw you wrote it's a matter of cost. Well, lemme give you my view.
    At first glance, Gigabyte's Ultra (~300$) looks like having the same VRM as the Master (~360$) but only the VRM heatsink is the same, Ultra's VRM is just worse. If you are wondering why i comment on this, is because the higher the cores on the cpu the more the strain on the VRM when doing heavy multitracking with realtime softsynths or rendering etc. At the 300$ price point, the ASRock x570 Taichi is the winner since both the Ultra and the Taichi should have a TB3 header which can be outfitted with each company's own Thunderbolt 3 expansion card (these cards cost an extra 60-100$ depending where you buy them from), but the Taichi has a better VRM plus more SATA ports. So, if you want TB3 with any of these, the solution will go as high as about 360-400$ (mobo+TB3 add-on card).
    Still, if do you care about Thunderbolt and price, you would go for the brand new B550 Gigabyte Vision D. It should be available anytime now, goes for about 250$ and has TB3 built in the backplate, so you save a lot of money with it and the Vision D, believe it or not, has a very capable VRM for the price as opposed to the Ultra which to me is overpriced and the only good thing about it is the 3 M.2 slots.
    And speaking about X570, if you are going for the Ultra, the X570 Master is worth the 60 extra bucks imho, just for its VRM (this is a 12+2 phase controller/50A each vs Ultra's 12+2 phase/40A each which should seem ok but in fact it's a 6+2 phase controller using doublers).
    I also recently built a 3900X with an Asus Strix x570-E Gaming and it's a very solid, premium board with great OC feats as well and an abundance of USB and SATA ports. If you don't care about Thunderbolt you should -imho always- consider this as well.
    All i can say is the 3900X is no slouch, it will literally chew anything you throw at it and is a much better option than any Intel offering at the same price.
    Cheers :)
    PS: Feel free to ask me or pm about builds with X570 i have done a lot the past year :)
     
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  10. quadcore64

    quadcore64 Rock Star

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    If you really want a comparable desktop workstation to Apple with currently available product. I would probably go with the following as one option. Keep in mind that prices will vary by retailer. These are from different sources as found.

    AMD Threadripper 3960X 3.8 GHz 24-Core Processor - $1399.00
    ASRock TRX40 Creator ATX sTRX4 Motherboard - $459.99

    G.Skill Ripjaws V (4 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 - $469.99
    or

    OLOy (4 x 32GB) 288-PinSDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Model MD4U323216DJDA - $398.00​

    Noctua NH-U9 TR4-SP3 46.44 CFM CPU Cooler - $69.90
    Phanteks Revolt X 1200W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply - $249.99
    AMD Radeon Pro W5500 100-506095 8GB 128-bit GDDR6 PCIe 4.0 x16 - $409.99

    The OLOy memory is actually very good memory as confirmed by various sources including Wendell at Level1.

    Keep in mind that this is a workstation build but, more than capable of gaming.

    Also keep in mind that DAWs like cores with sustained frequency & memory with tight timings. Quad-channel memory configuration is also a big boost to performance.

    NVMe Gen3 or Gen4 is a personal choice. For heavy VSTi loads or video editing, Gen4 is the better choice.

    That's my 2 cents worth for now. Happy tracking!
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  11. MYCbeats

    MYCbeats Platinum Record

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    I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but if money was no object, Intel is superior due to their better single core performance.

    I'm in a similar boat as you, I'm looking to build a new PC. I created a benchmark in Studio One that consisted of 16 channels of tone generators followed by 3 multiband dynamics. On my 4790k, 100 bars rendered at 53 seconds, on a friends 10700k ran 43 seconds.

    The multicore performance scores are like 8000 and 18000 respectively, the single core performance scores are 2400 and 3000.
    Comparing the figures, the daw performance correlates with the single threaded scores.

    In your case the 10900k is currently one of the top 3 highest scoring in the single threaded category.
     
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  12. taskforce

    taskforce Audiosexual

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    You betcha you 'll get some flack for these :rofl:. Jus' kiddin of course, no reason to get uncivilized but i need to correct you on almost all.
    There is no cpu or bandwidth advantage left for Intel but the higher cpu turbo boost which is only momentary in most cases. I 'd take more cores anytime anyway, this is 2020 mate.
    My 4790K renders even faster due to constant oc @ 4.65 ghz. I also have among others, a small server with an 8 core Xeon, a 6700K and a 7700K and have built enough comps around 9700K and 9900K. The latter (and the newer "10th gen") should pose as very good cpus if only there was no competition heh. So, there is this huge BUT (or Intel's butt hurt lol).
    Comparing the top mainstream 10900K from Intel to something like the 3900X from AMD, Intel loses in all multi-threaded scenarios and with much less power needed and AMD's pci-e gen.4 makes choice a no brainer. The gap widens even further when you put the 3950X in the equation. And surely DAW does NOT correlate with single threaded scores. All DAWs are fully multi-threaded apps. Fek, even some triple A game titles now support or even demand 6-8 cores to fully unleash their potential.
    PS: Nowadays there is even the option of AMD Hackintosh for those who like a little more tinkering: https://amd-osx.com/
    Cheers
     
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  13. 5teezo

    5teezo Audiosexual

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    I've spend the last weeks looking into options for upgrading my Hackintosh so I'm pretty deep into the topic.

    1. If you want to go PC only, go AMD. It's cheaper, better performing and more power efficient. But I would get the new XT variant which clocks higher, because AMD CPUs are not really overclock-friendly. So I would get the 3900 XT.

    Can't go wrong ith the Gigabyte X570 AORUS Boards. And if you, some day decide to maybe try installing OSX o it, you can. BUT: AMD and Hackintosh for Audio is not recommended. That's why I am staying on Intel for now, since I believe tthat this will be last Hackintosh I built before x86 support and hackintoshing in general ends. But that's another topic…

    2. If you go Intel, go Z490 for future-proofing. I'm probably getting the Z490 Vision D with an i9 10900k.The boostclock ist about 5 Ghz which gives intel an advantage in single core performance, but the power consumption is higher as well (125 Watts TDP). Only problem: in Germany you can't get the i9 10900k CPU currecntly. There's also the new i9 10850K which is a bit slower, but available right now and 30 bucks cheaper.
    If you do a lot of work with Adobe Products, Intel CPUs have an advantage in rendering due to some tech that amd doesn't have (yet). An alternative would be the i7 10700k which is a bit faster than the i9 9900k, with 8 Cores/16 Threads. And it's a lot cheaper. Scores around 10000 Multiscore in Geekbench (mac).That's about twice as fast in mulitcore performance than my i7 6700K.

    For last gen, i9 9900k and Z390 Designare is greadt for Audio/Media Production.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  14. MYCbeats

    MYCbeats Platinum Record

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    I would say DAW workloads are multiple single core loads not multicore loads.

    for it to be multicore, band 1 of an eq would be processed on one thread, band 2 on another, and so on... but thats not the case, multicore support in audio just means the audio processing is done on one thread and all the ancillary processing like gain compensation, and spectrum analyzer is done on others.
     
  15. quadcore64

    quadcore64 Rock Star

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    If you open Task Manager>Performane>CPU, there you will see that CPU threads are shown as 'Logical Processors'. Modern DAWs use these as individual cores for work loads.

    Now click on 'Resource Monitor". Here you will also see threads shown as individual CPUs. A 4C/8T CPU would bee seen as CPU 0 thruough CPU 07. Pro Tools & Logic give the same overview in their respective resource/system usage views.
     
  16. Legotron

    Legotron Audiosexual

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    Check the latest Sound on Sound, August issue has article called AMD & Intel CPUs tested.
    Also new AMDs should be released next month as stated before
     
  17. tzzsmk

    tzzsmk Audiosexual

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    10-12 cores? for what audio tasks do you need that, to make it economically viable?
    nowadays I'd pretty much stick to any decent 6-core cpu with high core clock (at least 4.5GHz sustained), no need for more cores in audio processing imo,
    similarly 128GB ram for what? virtual instruments? you might have better results building second rig with Vienna Ensemble Pro server there..
    and then, 2x NVME SSDs, effectively cutting 8 PCIe lanes provided by cpu, so I assume you won't be getting a powerful graphics card, as it would remain bottlenecked by remaining 8 PCIe lanes?
    :chilling:
     
  18. Daskeladden

    Daskeladden Rock Star

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    MSI Z490M Edge WiFi has no thunderbolt native or header. Bad choice for music production.
    I recommend this set up (cause I'm in the process of buying it myself):

    Intel Core i9-10900K
    Gigabyte Z490 VISION D
    Noctua NH-U12A CPU cooler (please no bullshit about needing liquid cooler)

    AMD could be a risky business for audio production due to issues with memory, bios, chipset and thunderbolt. AMD fanboys would of course not admit this, but just ignore them. Only one things worse than AMD fanboys......Linux fanboys
     
  19. quadcore64

    quadcore64 Rock Star

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    Venturing of-topic, you, just revealed yourself as an Intel fanboy, did you not?

    Back on-topic. As mentioned in the original post that Hackintosh was possible, AMD is the better supported platform for this.

    Both Intel & AMD have pros & cons of various types.

    As far as Thunderbolt. USB Gen3.2 2x2 & the coming Gen 4 will most likely be the new standard for board makers.
    This is already being seen with external audio interfaces from the major brands.
     
  20. KungPaoFist

    KungPaoFist Audiosexual

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    A high core clock is great for real-time processing but more cores allow for more tracks and higher workloads. Also I thought I was balling out of control with 40gb of RAM but my system runs out surprisingly quick. I'm in for a ram upgrade myself.

    btw VEP is great for networks but for things like freezing in place it can be a workflow killer. I find you have to bounce an audio file and re import if you want to resample something.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  21. Pinkman

    Pinkman Audiosexual

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    I appreciate all the food for thought, guys.
    @5teezo I've been reading up on AMD Hackintoshes but If you have personal experience with it not being good for audio, please enlighten me, as this was the route I was going to take.
    @taskforce Knowledgeable and insightful as always and most importantly, impartial.
    I'm gonna wait and research a little more as this is the first brand new computer I've built since 2001. I've been recycling and reusing so no matter what it'll be a major upgrade.
    Thank you all for the input
     
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