Hi,

I've been using Pro-Q3 for stereo imaging a lot and over the years I've been making presets for me to speed up stuff and have around 50+ or something over the years with a lot of stupid ideas combined but lately I've been really liking (read: self-obsessing) over these 2 presets I've made that was loosely based on RND Portico II Masterbus hardware unit, particularly the SFE (Stereo Field Editor) section of it. I found it fascinating the way the great Rupert Neve implemented the M/S EQ for stereo imaging because I never thought of using it that way AT ALL. The way I hear it instead of widening the stereo image, it's more like increasing the center channel clarity but with added movement to stereo field without narrowing the image. Logically you can easily do that by attenuating the Side channel volume so more mid comes through but doing that will narrow the image, so it's different. So it doesn't make things wider but feels wider if it makes any sense.

So the presets I've made, it was loosely based on that idea and I've had to add some dynamic filters as well to compensate the imbalance etc, and after quite some times tweaking I finally get the sweet spot that I like and been using them like a madman lately until I started to questioning myself. Is it really doing what I thought it is, or I'm just being delusional lol, I hope not. So I'm hoping the people here can test it, and give some thoughts about it.

What I like about it :
1. It's making the center channel more apparent without making the stereo field shallow
2. It doesn't really add wideness but more like making the stereo image a little exciting so it seems wider

What I want to know:
1. Will this f-up the tracks, if you do this type of processing on the Stereo Bus.
2. Does this work for you, or you find it useless
3. Is there any downside of using EQ based stereo imaging (I don't think so, but maybe I missed something)
4. What would you do to improve it or how you'd use Pro-Q3 for stereo image enhancement

The Presets :
1. There are two of them. 1 will definitely work for the track, if the other isn't. So make sure to test both roughly at first.
2. Everything is at zero at first and use the Pro-Q3 Gain Scale to add the amount of FX (or EQ). 50%-80% is how I like it. Auto-Gain is already On by default and recommended to leave it ON for no volume change.
3. I've only used it on individual tracks and groups so far because I'm not really sure it will be a good idea to use it on the final Stereo Bus. I think it sound so good on an already stereo track like keys, pop clean guitars, bells, tings and stuff. So it's not capable of making a mono track stereo.
4. If you like it, keep it

Copy the presets to the Fabfilter Preset location in Documents folder. Download is at the bottom of this post.




Disclaimer : This doesn't mean that it will sound like the hardware unit or whatever, I've just based the EQ settings on it and the hardware will 200% sounds better, I guess.

 

Last edited: Jun 23, 2023

Not sure why we need a whole thread about two EQ presets but here you go.

Can't say anything about the hardware sound, but these two fellas here are hard-carried by autogain. Also I feel like the subtle dynamics processing you have going on there contributes more to the tone you're getting than Mid-Side processing.
I tried it on a bunch of material I had lying around (on mix busses too) and both presets make everything duller, the first one moreso. This is, however, because my material's already mixed by me, and all the decisions about stereo imaging and other stuff are already made and implemented. Thus I don't see it as messing up the sound, but rather as a flavour that doesn't quite fit in with what's already there.

As for stereo imaging via EQ - well, the mainest concern is of course phase relations between Mid and Side channels. By EQing one of them with non-linear-phase EQ, you rotate parts of it slightly in-phase with the other, and thus the overall stereo image and frequency response would be different from what the plugin interface tells you. This is not a big concern, however, although it's noticeably more drastic with -pass(-cut) filters.

I'd not use stereo imaging for "enhancing" the stereo image of my mix - I believe that's what panning and spatial effects are for. So if I need a wider sound, I'd pan the track to one side and then have a subtle slapback delay counter-panned to it. I also use Voxengo MSED a lot specifically to pan the Mid channel around without directly affecting the Side channel, or to counter-pan Mid and Side and do some Side hi-passing if the sound is wide enough (that actually makes muddy super-wide piano sounds more focused and coherent in the mix without giving up width for example). Or I can take the mono hi-hats, set Polyverse Wider on 100% (love this thing because it doesn't touch Mid at all - it only creates new Side channel) and hard-pan Mid and the newly synthesized Side left and right with MSED. After that I'd attennuate the resulting Side channel by a few dB, usually with another instance of MSED.

I quite often use Pro-Q to cut the unwanted Side content or boost the lacking Mid content on separate tracks or whole busses, if I hear any issues. If I for some reason need to boost Side signal on the mix bus at specific frequencies, I use TDR SlickEQ M for that. I find that it works better for that purpose, perhaps due to parallell topology.

 

Haven't tried the presets, but from what you describe I think you might be interested in Leapwing's CenterOne.
I know it helped me tremendously with a few problematic mixes where M/S wasn't helping at all, or I had to resort to extremely complicated routing and patching to get similar but inferior results.

 

All EQ moves are attenuation, of course it needed more gain to level match (Auto-gain in this case). That's why I said the way Rupert Neve designed it is different than how we'd use the mid/side EQ. He used attenuation method, like all seasoned professional, they prefer attenuation on EQ rather than boost. In this case he did it so that he can bring the level up using his circuit with all the extra little spice, think of a Pultec. Pro-Q3 doesn't have tube gain stage, and there's auto-gain, which I believe a smarter choice than just static added gain to compensate, might as well use it.

the filters are mostly shelves, the bells are 1-2db wide Q, no HPF, LPF with 180 phase shift at all. Those smallest little rotation is the whole point of it so the sound would change caused by the phase of mid and side interacts so it will create something. That's why all those shelves and filters are introduced at the first place. EQing them with linear-phase will undo most of them, and... what's the point. Linear Phase is used commonly (on stereo bus) to maintain the stereo image no ? how to stereo enhance while maintaining the stereo image. hmm

yeah you can do all the backflip magic trick delay on the 12th dimension and pan it inside out and most of us know that already. My point is about using the EQ Technique. Most new Stereo Bus processor are now using EQ Techniques for stereo enhancement if they have that function offered on the product. Apart from the Portico, a plugin that I recently read on manuals is PA Masterdesk Pro. The plugin was designed, involves collaboration with few mastering engineers, so it's a technique that they approved. I watched a lot of Mastering interviews that recommend EQ techniques for stereo enhancing and more and more of these new "masterbus processors" hardware and plugins starting to use this technique instead of just conventional M/S gain which still have it downside, transient smearing and such but if used carefully it should be okay. The more problematic techniques before was the delay (HAAS), and detuning that is not recommend for stereo bus processing by any mastering engineer ever.



Imagine creating a whole thread about two EQ presets yet people still talk about something else entirely.

 

What's with that hostility? I shared what I know and think and get a spray of bile into my face, what for?
Also, breenworh ads, really? "Seasoned pros prefer subtractive EQ", really? Do you even know why?
Have fun, I'm not participating further.

 

No, I can't just shut up.

You asked to generally tell you what are the possible downsides. You asked to tell you.
And then when I did mention the single possible downside as you asked to do - you proceeded to what? Do you think this is fair?

 

that if you understand the phase rotation difference of Shelves and say a High Pass Filter that is 180degree. ALL EQ moves introduced phase shift, if that's a downside then ? throw all the EQ then. wtf

because you don't seem to understand why the auto-gain is there at the first place

 

Last edited: Jun 23, 2023

Open your bloody eyes.

 

this is not an airport, no need to announce anything. It's not like I value your opinion at all.

 

@Olymoon or @No Avenger please close the thread. I don't have time for this anymore. Need to uninstall all my EQ and throw away my EQ hardware too.

 

Oh, so it is personal. Well you should've announced that the first time you felt it, contrary to your smartassery, so I wouldn't've wasted my time on something you will only see as an insult.
I'll keep that in mind from now on.[removed a bit here, even tho it wasn't an insult per se I shouldn't descend to the same level as the one berating me]

 

Last edited: Jun 23, 2023

good riddance, won't lose sleep over it, I promise.

 

ah, totally forgot about this one, will give a try and see how it does its thing. thanks.

 

Holy shit, what a mess
I would just take a 3-band multiband compressor, set the crossover at 1kHz and 2kHz and boost the midband by - let's say - 1.5dB.
the mid channel in the treble band can then be lowered by 2dB. Done.

 

Last edited: Jun 23, 2023

Nice preset
Perhaps the low and high frequencies are laid back to give the illusion of widening
Same principle as hitting reverb with a sidechain comp

 

In general, different opinions or points of view are not a reason to close a thread.

I think you and @justwannadownload made some 'mistakes', for instance:

This thread is not about the presets but how to achieve a specific goal in mixing/mastering.

It would've been useful to state this crystal clear in the OP, aswell as this

But if a mix just lacks some freqs this is hardly the way to go.

I suggest both of you calm down (take a walk, have a cold shower) and accept that there's no one size fits all in such cases and people are using different methods to achieve a similar effect.

 

Last edited: Jun 23, 2023

Schreibst du neuerdings mit Füller? Dick und blau?

 

Yes, yes, my fountain pen leaked.

Seriously, I prefer to use a different and more noticable formatting when moderating (to differentiate it from posting as a member).

 

use red, like a teacher would.

not sure if I done it correctly, but, I only get compress/expand movement, but no Depth of Field changes. If you have the time can you make one and show your point. With the Pro-Q on that preset, you can feel the Depth of Field a little expand, the mid channel kinda grow bigger and deeper.

I didn't understand if you meant, just straight up boost or, compress/expand. I tried the straight band level boost, but it's kinda too overkill to use a MB plugin for that, so I assume you meant something like this above.

you mean ducking ? side-chain the reverb with the same signal.

 

First I do not like Mid-Side processing because it's too much work and it's not just tuning, but tuning in the stereofield (very strange).

The latter because widening without getting phase issues is easy to achieve nowadays. I recently made my head around "what's essential in mixing" and one part is to be able to repete processes because the outcome is very clearly defined. To me, this is not.

Btw.:

I recently checked the phase response in detail. You can not even imagine.

Yes. It does not widen.

 

Last edited: Jun 23, 2023