So I've been watching a tutorial about Massive, and the guy doing the tut clips a few times, and instead of reaching for the Amp knob to turn down the oscillator source he goes straight for the Master knob... I was always taught that turning down the Master output doesn't actually "solve" clipping, the Master out is still clipped, now it's just clipped with less output... So who else goes for the Master knob (specifically when creating patches, but not limited to that scope) instead of the output source when you see clipping? And why? I just want to know the rationale behind it...

 

It depends.

Maybe you want to clip/distort within a plugin, yet have good gain-staging from the plugin (turning down the output/master of said plugin).

edit: No multi-option available? Usually you want all (source level, input gain, output level, channel gain, track fader, group fader, master).

 

He had the Amp of every oscillator all the way up... I don't think gain-staging was an actual consideration in this case...

 

Sometimes you want to drive things hard within a VSTi/VST but want a controlled level out...and sometimes you don't know what the fuck you are doing (and no one taught you about gain-staging) but you like the result.
Maybe he is the latter, like you said.

 

If people take the time to do proper gain staging they wont have to turn faders down at the end of a mix.

When i get stems, I turn them all down from the wav source, so that my master is around 8-10 dB (while all faders are still at 0). Then I mix with volume and pan, faders start moving a couple dB here and there, all before I load any plugins. For every plugin I make sure the input level is the same as the output level, nothing will ever clip.

The second reason why this is the best solution is that most plugins work their best at around -10db. If you turn down the master, or the channel fader (which is almost always post fx), youre plugins will still be clipping.

^The same applies for my production projects.

Some VSTis have higher bit depth internal processing, but the output will be the same as the project, therefore turning the master output level within the instrument instead of the amp level will suffice.

 

I don't believe it's the case described by Baxter, simply because analog/tape/valve distortion from hardware synths and/or processors may be ear-pleasant, but Massive (or any other digital synth) internal clipping is merely a squaring of the wave (which isn't very comfortable to the ear).

If you're making a patch (or processing a sound with cascading processors) you'll want to keep an eye on clips at each stage and make sure there's no internal clipping (which can't be avoided with master fader control) in processors. However, like Baxter said, some plugins are designed to clip pleasantly but, again, stay away from Massive clips and turn the volume down inside the synth.

Hope this helps!! Gain staging is hard but hopefully digital has made it easier

 

Gain staging is not at all hard in digital since you cant over reduce levels. In analog, you had to balance how hot the levels were vs the signal to noise to find the optimal amount of both.

It just takes discipline. Because its not the sexiest part of mixing, it gets over looked. Things like this are what separate pro mixers and amateurs.

 

You should never be clipping the master fader until mixdown. Then, depending on genre, you can keep dynamics, or clip and limit, or.... whatever. Mix individual tracks at reference -18 dbFS. (Noise floor doesn't matter anymore if you have good power and quiet signal chain. NF for VSTi's is pretty much - non existant), then work on overall loudness at 2-buss time with makeup gain of your preference.

 

in that case he wanted the sound of the synth to clip, but obviously not the track.

 

Ok, i was lazy and didn't read the whole post. lol sorry.......

If you're not getting desired clipping on source, then use something like Xfer LFO tool to shape your waveform.

 

you don't touch tour Master Buss leave it at 0 and you Mix to it leaving -6 to -3 db Head Room

 

Not the master bus, the Master out from the instrument

 

It depends whether I turn it down at the source, track, or master. Master is definitely very convenient, especially if you're working with lots of tracks or channels.

Depends on DAW. I use REAPER, which has 64 bit fl. point IAP (many DAWs these days have 32/64bit fl. point IAP). So turning down a clipped master may truly un-clip it.

Again, it depends. The output should be no higher that what the project/DAW supports.

I know I have a 24bit fx. point VST. Thus, if it clips, turning down the volume post won't fix clipping. But turning down the volume pre, will. Some have 32/64bit IAP. That's fine either way.

If you have proper gain staging, you won't need to figure out which VSTs are 16/24bit fx. point IAP and 'silently' clip.