For the listening to the favorite tracks and analyzing them inside the DAWs as the most valuable resource of learning the structures, I totally agree with you.

You learn music theory but in creating melody, bass, even chord progressions, rhythm, selecting sounds, ... you act randomly. What would be the major role and point of music theory other than respecting just the simple scales' based harmony?

 

When I create a melody from the very start I already have a structure (usually binary phrasing as I do electronic dance music) and a steps & skips proportion. This is not random. White noise is random. My thinking is definitely not white noise. When I create my sounds is, again, a process based on my previous experience, and experimentation of unusual combinations of FX and instruments (using a chord trigger on a percussion kit for example). Again, presing "randomize" button on syhts is random. Knowingly picking up certain waveforms for certain sound type and setting envelopes and modulations is not random. Whatever I dream and I think is random, is entirely a remix of my previous experience. Even the random fact that I know that I can put a chord trigger in front of a sampler full of percussion elements) is still based on my experiene thus known. There may be a certain level of randomness in everyone's actions, but is nor the majority nor the foundation of the music making process.

Ummmm... Let's see. The very 4/4 in front of your DAW is music theory. Then leaps vs steps ratio, in order to get a memorable song. Proper rhythm & phrasing. The theory (species & motions) behind creating a series of matching individual basslines or leads based on a chord progression, instead of just copying the bottom notes of said chord progression. The polymeter, hypermeter & syncopation & canonic progression. The ambiguous displacement... And this are all just a scratch of the surface.

Of course, it's all random when you know shit about music, but you think you know a lot.

 

Please listen to this well-done song:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ufhh86ah3q5rbxt/When+The+Clouds.+-+November+Song.aac
Youtube or the sister site are full of EDM related materials shouting the general structures. Unfortunately by watching more of them, our tastes suck more and our brains' doors are being closed for the songs like the above track.

 

Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2016

Then open your eyes to all of the music that exists, and not just one facet of the web that caters to people making music on their computers. Do you think everyone who listens to music has to use youtube or the sister site? Dont be so naive.

 

Sorry dude but this comment just calls for it.

EDM structure: 1st 8 bars 4/4 nothing to complicated for the DJ to mix in with.
Last 8 bars same as the 1st 8 bars.
The bit in the middle: What ever you want to do as long as it makes people want to dance>

 

there is no formula. i mean , you can set limits or parameters for yourself if it helps.
personally i think, just make the music YOU want to hear and damn the rest. trust what you feel ( master luke) not what you think. imo

 

or alternately you could watch it on

Or does that suggest that it can't be good, if it's on youtube,
Without good listening to the millions of tracks in different genres, you'll absolutely produce shit! More thinking and learning, less producing.

I take good listening means concentrating on the sounds , rhythms, and structure. Or doesn't it.

 

Only if you'd fill the void between your golden ear and the other (I presume normal?) ear.

 

I got this from the library a half a block from my house. It's from the "The Complete Idiot's guide to Songwriting" but I really don't understand it yet, because Idk what the A and B stands for:

Bruce Springsteen’s “Born in the USA” uses this form:
A (Verse) A (Verse) A (Verse)
------------------------------
The most accessible and familiar form is this one:
A (Verse) A (Verse) B (Bridge) A (Verse)
“Saving All My Love for You” (M. Masser, G. Goffin), and “Just the Way You Are” (Billy Joel) use the AABA
structure.
-------------------------------
Another familiar form is the following:
A (Verse) B (Chorus) A (Verse) B (Chorus) A (Verse) B (Chorus)
“Killing Me Softly with His Song” utilizes the ABABAB structure, as does the driving
“Big Bad Leroy Brown.” This structure has no bridge in it, just two sections alternating
with each other.
-------------------------------------
B. J. Thomas used the following format in “Don’t Worry Baby”:
A (Verse) B (Chorus) A (Verse) B (Chorus) C (Bridge) B (Chorus)
A variation on ABABCB would be this structure:
A (Chorus) B (Verse) A (Chorus) B (Verse) A (Chorus)
----------------------------------------------
Sometimes the verse is repeated four times or more, without any chorus or bridge.
Johnny Cash’s “I Walk the Line” uses this structure.
-----------------------------------------------
The Eagles demonstrated that basic forms can be stretched, extended, or molded into
any shape that makes sense. For “Lyin’ Eyes,” they did the following:
A (Verse) A (Verse) A (Verse) B (Chorus) A (Verse) B (Chorus)
This structure is daring because it delays the appearance of the chorus until nearly
halfway through.

With House and EDM, isn't what provokes the most profound drug synergistic response the whole purpose? Doesn't all the songs have a specific structure that can be written down just like for these examples? [Remember I'm on my first pacifier]

Have you considered adding binaural beat frequencies for a specific brain wave entrainment? There's lots of digital masking of stuff for various good, neutral and bad purposes too. I mean, if the kiddies really want an enhanced trip, I could do that with Gamma entrainment and see what happens. Who knows, who's doing what right now...different human organs have different resonance frequencies too, so if you're blowing thru their bodies anyways, why not focus on a specific effect?

Furtheremore, EDM is used in a subculture of a specific type trying to induce a specific state of mind, so investigate that. I know the sub base, which is mistaken for "elation" is the physiological fear response that is conflated with the situation (like horror movies help men on dates...their dates confuse their arousal for being aroused by their dates...it works, sad but true) so I think you should actually study the psycho acoustics of ppl's responses to dance and MDMA if you want a "hit."

 

Last edited: May 14, 2016

Thank you so much this is what I'm looking for.. 2nd great answer. I will study this thread tonight for further dissection after I finish work. (Minus the sassyness and Fosters bizarre ideas)

 

A and B are just the different parts. It doesn't tell you any more than saying "Verse/Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus" etc. Just shorthand?

There used to be a video tutorial at 'the other place' that (very boringly) went through songwriting like that - A/B/A/A/B whatever. Maybe it's still there? I think it was by ASK company. Maybe Groove3?

 

@G String Nuts. Well given EDM that I watched being created they definitely are following a recipe for at least the structure. "This is where you put the Drop." I also don't know what a "Drop" is, accept on some forums it means "send." It's amazing to watch someone explain something without being able to understand wtf they mean. I hate that.

Or watch Massive tutorials, "This is the classic 808 bass." wtf is a classic 808 bass used for, fk if I know.

The only things I hear different between EDM genres are usually one change. Vocals for that genre, Trap I already forgot, but a few are just different because of the kicks they use...idk. One EDM is kinda Rappy, with very provocative almost dressed girls on their covers.

 

hehe

SFAIK the drop is when everything comes back in......you know, after it's all been taken out. The 'boom' of it hitting again after the calm bits.

The best bit? ;)

On 808......it's an old drum machine.... no bass on it is there? 303 was the (fantastic) bass machine, no?

 

It's all here and go here for a little help with inspiration and song structure

 

You've got everything for making a A-bomb. Show us what you can do with these info.

 

Couple of things to keep in mind when you ask the question.
Foundation for a songs obviously based off of chord patterns on a scale,all your favorite artists and the songs they create use a particular structure.
Example Back in Black from ACDC
(V, IV, I) or (VII, IV, I)

If you take the above pattern,and apply it to a given scale(lets say C for instance)
in the C scale youd have:
V,IV,!=Gmaj-Fmaj-Cmaj
I ii iii IV V vi vii
Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim
Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bm7b5
(and if your looking for the licks and runs in-between you could use C major pentatonic for the runs between after or before the chords)



Just as an Example you could write a song like back in black using relative minor chords
and shift to c minor pentatonic.

The trick with Writing a good solid song is the use of Energy and Delivery over the Entire track.
Varying chord shapes,Embellishments,playing things in octaves,Runs,heck even adding in air.

I used a Very similar Approach on a song I wrote Called Vampire Sight:

during part of the Melody in the chorus to be different we switched some of the chord patterns just to vary it up.

At the Time I was heavily listening to SKid Row and used that approach to the writing.
By taking your favorite artist and looking at what the do both structurally and dynamically,and using similar patterns you'll begin to figure out and work with creating your own style.

 

Cool song!! Like the vocals too. Very good Info.. I agree. I'll have to google some of the terms you used. (NOT CHORDS OR MELODIES JERKS ;) but the runs for instance. Thanks again and for the cool music video

 

"The trick with Writing a good solid song is the use of Energy and Delivery over the Entire track.
Varying chord shapes,Embellishments,playing things in octaves,Runs,heck even adding in air."
-zendretta

It took me 2 weeks to finally come across a definition of what "wet" and "dry" meant (idk why I just didn't google it), but idk wtf does "Energy" or "Delivery" mean in this context. Are you talking about chord progression increases in tension and then resolutions?

Very strange, Idr coming across V, IV, I, in my music theory kindergarten courses (I'm up to finger painting and crayons in music theory) but I sure played that as part of chord progressions in 100s of guitar songs, I know for sure.

Htf do you map all the music theory onto your hands to start to know which way to go after a specific chord, or chord progression? There seems to be a lot of work to go from song listener, to song player, to song writer...each a magnitude more complicated.

Should we all just study Max Martin, Sacha Skarbek, etc.?

 

Last edited: May 16, 2016

Easily, by doing the appropriate exercises on any given instrument. But judging by your question, you don't understand what makes someone a song writer as opposed to a song player. Or in other words, What makes a composer a composer? You, (and most uneducated musicians) seem to think that music theory is what allows songwriters to make their decisions. But that's not the case. For example you know English language theory, does that make you a novelist? Nope, making the decisions a writer needs to make while finishing a novel is what makes them a novelist.

And likewise in music. Being a songwriter IS simply making those decision needed to write a song. Music theory only justifies those decisions and helps one write more fluently, so they don't have to guess as to what note or rhythm you're hearing at that moment. Think about from a different perspective. If someone only knew three chords but wrote twenty songs from those three chords, they would still be a song writer. But someone else that call out every chord and chord progression by ear, yet still hasn't completed writing a single tune would not be considered a songwriter by anyone.

Bottom line, even within the context of a scale, where you choose to go after the first random note you decided to play is equally as random. After you play a C in the key C what comes next? Literally whatever YOU want. The question is, how do YOU what YOUR composition to sound?