why not offer 2 versions, music shouldnt be compromized

 

Also started out as an audiophile at my father's knee. My older brother & I honed this in our early teenage years along with me, seriously beginning a musical instrument journey from lessons to jams, stage & studio. At the same time I was exploring recording & live mixing. This allowed me to appreciate how music translated on everything from a portable radio to a high end stereo on the consumer side.

On the live mixing side. Started off with Shure PA systems eventually being introduced to Yamaha PM consoles & similar along with the reinforcement used with that at the high end.

On the recording side starting out with Pioneer & Teac 1/4 tape with dubbing & Studio Master console at home up to consoles such as API, Neve, SSL, Trident (Bear Creek Studios) while touring & recording. The most common monitor combination were custom soffit, NS-10 & Auratones. Back the the acid test out of the studio was car & boombox with 6 1/2 " speakers. The mix stage focus was always translation.

The boombox trick is still a useful tool if you have one (Sanyo or Sony). Similar to a set of NS-10s for that 40hz to 16kHz range with a focused mid range punch. For mixing headphones, the Sony MDR-7509 fill that roll for me (among a select few other).

For the way you describe how you want the mix to sound in the end, mixing on a set of 12" Tannoy monitors would probably get you to where you want to be. Again, just my humble opinion from what you have described along with your audio example.

I have a clear mental reference of material from early & jazz popular (20's through 60's) to the "modern" ear (70's to 90's) & the more current "Digital" era. The post modern is a graveyard of failed analog to digital translations with the current Ambisonic/Spacial era in danger of becoming the new graveyard for audio translation.

I appreciate your approach & where you want to land, just wandering if you have considered exactly how to get there. Sure you will figure it out and, best of luck getting there.

 

1 did you mention how your "uploaded on youtube music" sound on the speakers/monitors where you mixed on? (the speakers you like I meant). Maybe you did, but I didnt read anything about it, you only wrote about "youtube sounds weird on mobile devices"

2 how did you convert/upload your video/music on youtube? Which app? What specs? Is available on your video the 1080HD version?

3 did you compare the specs of your track with other youtube music you like? (the so called "nerd statistics")

 

Last edited: Nov 18, 2024 at 5:49 AM

To me, everything sounds bad on mobile. Music is meant to be listened to either live or on hifi type system. Not mobile. They need to improve the mobile devices, not the music. The music is fine.

 

Finally listened to the song, I think the mix is ok in general. I felt like it lacked a bit of fun and the mids were a little too busy. Since you posted it lossless, I took it for a spin and did a quick "master" on it. I also pushed the volume up quite a bit, it should show up super fat and compete more in loudness.

Probably doesn't sound amazing because I did everything in 10 minutes at best and didn't do much diligence in checking outside MixChecker Ultra since it's almost 4AM here (in hindsight, maybe I would boost less the highs, but it took a few good minutes to export, so I'll leave it like that). If you like it, be free to keep it.

https://pixeldrain.com/u/Y2Ze4KN1

 

You ran into the same wall I discovered. Bass is to loose and when pushed, forces loss of focus for other instruments. Horns and percussion are even further in the background. The mids need a lift as you discovered but, the problem areas need to be attenuated (mix stage using dynamic EQ). Valiant try!

 

Premising that I'm not a sound engineer, I personally use - in near field (about 2 meters) - ESB 7/09s and I haven't noticed problems on mobiles for my mixes.

So I strongly recommend to evaluate acoustic suspension-based monitoring for "reliable" mixes.

 

When I played back the track on my simple home cinema system (so not in my studio), which is set to surround as standard, I noticed that there was lots of sound comming from my surround speakers, much more then with any other track or even movie. That means that there is lots of out of phase effects in the track, like pseudo stereo. These are very bad for translating to mobiles which are pretty much mono so cancel all the out of phase sounds. The mix sounds to me as having way to much reverb. You should try to create a mix without any reverb or other stereo fx and only when that works add some reverb to taste. At least that is my humble opinion.

 

Last edited: Nov 18, 2024 at 9:49 AM

First of all: I really like the music here

Many users went a technical road to answer your question, I think there's reason for it. I want to add some thoughts of mine, primarly based on a quick and dirty comparison between your mix and your reference from Mbuta Likasu. I like to focus a lot on key elements of the track (or genre).

1) Snare. Very different, your's is mixed in a more natural way. In your reference track it is (beside vocals) the focal point to me. It makes sense to me in this kind of music style. But I can understand, why you don't prefer it mixed this way. Paper thin and upfront. I don't have a smartphone, but I guess the rhythmical elements of your track sound a lot more washy on small speakers.
2) Kick. Quite the same thing. Your's is deep and subby ... reference track is clicky af.
3) Vocals ... and again. Way more low/ low mid information on your side. In direct comparison the vocals from the Mbuta Likasu track sound rather thin. Again I can understand your mixing decision here, because in your case the singer is more on a calm-cool-mumbling style - in the reference track there is more excitement in this domain.
4) Guitars/Bass ... guess what, "same" thing again.

My conclusion is to went for a compromise. Keep your mix you like on your hifi, why abondon it, just take it for your own fun. I'd definitely check out the kick, because in your mix it is very dominant. If you want it like that, cool, but consider that it takes up much energy (even if you can't here it on ... well small phone speakers) and it can easily be to much. I'd also check the other core elements and see where to tame some low/low mid frequencies. Goal is to take the listeners attention to main elements. To me the starting point is good, to me it could improve a lot getting it brighter and somehow thinner (by reducing lower frequncies). You don't have to go all the way to your reference (which I like too, it sounds thin in a good classic way).



[Edit]
I listened to your track again. I am missing some kind of high shaker element in the rhythm section (even more obvious, because the snare is not upfront). There is a very solid low/low mid foundation, but it lacks the high counterpart(s).

 

Last edited: Nov 18, 2024 at 10:21 AM

If it sounds good in a good listening environment, it does sound good anywhere.

The thing is: It doesn't sound good. Not because of mixing, but because of the production.

 

Who the f listens to music on mobile built-in "speakers"? Worse enough if someone listens on earbuds. But on built-in speakers? F it. Do not care how that sounds. There is nothing that sounds good on this crap. So why do you care about the bullsh1t?

 

In the first seconds, only the voice, the problem is clear: your mids are not balanced correctly.

The mids are the foundation and let's say, your setup (room + monitors) does not allow you to hear the annoying midrange in the voice. Then it creates a chain reaction: the next instrument is EQed in way that it fits to the voice. Therefore the problems are accumulating. But you will not hear this on your setup.
Only when you switch to another system or setup, where different 10 dB resonances and cancellations are present, suddenly the mix or certain instruments seem no longer to fit.
Treble or bass and even subbass: it all goes back to the midrange.
If you get the midrange right, then everything else organically falls into it's place.

 

It's pretty good already..

I would try to Filter the elements as much as possible,
maybe with very snug 24db HP and 18db LP filters..

Make some more Space for each element,
take away what's not primordial; let the important frequency areas go thru..


-Then I would say what could be improved is the Percussive instruments,
the Snare is a bit too Dark in tone, and kinda Buried in the mix.. it could be Brighter, Snappier and a bit more prominent.

Cymbals could be a bit more Varied,
different cymbals spread in the Stereo image will add liveliness

Also the Shakers could be much more prominent!
This kind of Details will Not be heard at all in a Mono Phone Mixdown.


Improving Percussion could make a huge change I think.
While Filtering the elements will also make other problems more clear, helping you isolate them


-The choice of timbre for the Bass Drum and Bass is interesting..
The Low end sounds very Round and smooth in my AKG k712.. perhaps a bit boomy but in a Positive way, fits the style.

What I don't know is how will that translate on a Mono Phone..
On the plus side Bass and BD are centered, loud enough and present.

But maybe a Phone with a limited low end range will benefit of a more "textured" BD sound,
perhaps somethin with a more defined Attack.. (which will also differentiate it from the Bass..)

But yeah, that would fall on the sound design area of production,
and what would be considered good/appropriate for this track and style.

 

Ahh, my friend, this is what I was thinking about. It sounds super on the laptop, and according to my experience it will sound great on other low quality stuff as well. As usual, it is awful on the HiFi, but it seems this time I will have to make the compromise. I will spare my mix for the CD, this can go to Youtube if don't mind. Would you mind sending me your contact in PM because I may need your services in the future for remastering my stuff to streaming?

I need to mention though your version is problematic as well in certain aspects. It makes sensitive low quality speakers to distort a bit, mostly on very high notes but also on some loud mids. But it happens in case of some other songs on Youtube as well, that sound good on their own anyway. Now this is a problem why I wrote there are factors in this issue that would deserve a separate topic. So I don't want to mine into this furher, this is another problematic issue for me, not only when mixing. I will open another thread for it in the future to discuss this, because I know this problem can be solved, I am just not sure how, because I am not successful doing so all the time, sometimes I could, I just don't understand why it works sometimes why not other times. But now it is not that important. I can live together with it now. It is well in the acceptable range.

 

The best thing you could do, is to correct the inaudible instruments by redo the mixing process.
In my opinion the bass is weak, but it's not only about the level and to be prevalent on a smartphone speaker, you could use some psychoacoustic technique, such as adding harmonics to the bass (and maybe the kick) to have it present on the crappy smartphone's speaker, for example by using a plugin like Waves Rbass or something in the same fashion not to add more bass, but to add more highs to the bass in a way that our brain will think that it's a bass even if the speaker can't reproduce lower frequencies.
To have a real time feedback on what you are doing, you could use a smartphone app called Sonobus in conjunction with the plugin to send your DAW audio straight to the smartphone while you are mixing.
After that, you will have to re-balance the levels of the entire mix to find a good compromise and to do that, you better listen on different speakers, but usually, when you find the balance it will sound good.

 

I have read all your comments, with certain things I agree, with certain not, but let me extend my first post with some more info, because maybe then you will understand why I insist on mixing on the HiFi in this case:

1. My HiFi is not EQ-ed. It includes a Sony SACD player, a home made but professional amp with only a volume knob, and a pair of great KEF speakers. Okay, you may say: dude, maybe your home made amp EQ-es the sound in itself. Maybe, but is irrelevant. Why? As I mentioned, my father's friend runs an audiophile store in your town. He has been doing it for 20 years. If you open an audiophile magazine, and you can see all those expansive things in it, he had most of them. Even now he has most of that stuff. And their world in the shop is strictly anti EQ. They never use EQ. But usually those system has no EQ anyway. Most of those amps that costs sometimes tens of thousands, they come with just a power switch and a volume knob. In that audiophile world EQ-ing is a sin. Don't confuse that stuff with things like Sony Surround home cinema that you can buy in department stores. Their world rejects those things. Just the classic stereo HiFi, no EQ, no booster knobs. I took my mix to his shop today, we listened to it on 3 different setups, all factory items, not home made: my mix sounded great. I don't want to change it. At least not for the HiFi. So from this you can see the problems I am referring to are not coming from the fact that I optimized the mix for my passive system. It sounds good on other stuff as well from that passive stereo 'universe'.

2. I mentioned I usually have same unable-to-enjoy cross platform problems with similar productions, so let me explain that now:

- This is one of my favourite albums. This sounds great in earphones, headphones, on JBL desktop speakers, on Laptop, in the car. Once I listened to it on Dynaudio active monitors in the studio: I don't remember if it was 100% satisfying, but it sounded OK.

If i play this song on my HiFi, it sounds bad. I have almost 100 CDs from this genre, the same problem with them. Sound bad on my HiFi. I took it to my friend's store to test it on his expensive systems: the same. Bad. He agreed. The main problem is: very often the bass and kick is too much. It covers the rest of the instuments too much, to an extent where I feel it disturbing. Then, very often I feel some instruments are louder than they should, like secondary instruments, and things that should be loud are too silent, like solo guitars. So there is often a chaos in instrument balance. And usually the overall mix sounds Box like. I cannot describe it with a better word.

- Here is another example, it is almost okay for me, but the kick is terrible I think. It is so rattly that it destorys the sound completely I think:

- And here is a kind of worst case scenario. This one, it sounds annoying on mobile devices as well, but at least there it is listenable. On the HiFi however, this is terrible. But this has all the problems that other songs only partly have:

My friends, when they send me their music from this genre, usually the same symptoms can be heard. It is good in the car, good on mobile, on Youtube, on laptop, on headphones, but once I play them on HiFi: unlistenable.

3. Now, you could say, okay, but this is how it is, the HiFi is different, you need to live together with that. Okay, but how is it that I have a huge collection of pop, rock, jazz, r&b, etc. and I never had this problem? At least not to this extent? Here is a simple example, Genesis, this is great on the HiFi and sounds good on the laptop as well:

This time I had a chance to mix our band's music myself, so after this background you may understand why I went to mix it on the HiFi at the first place. And the outcome is good. It is good in the HiFi store. But as I expected, it is bad in the car (the bass is low), bad on the laptop, tablet, desktop speakers, on headphone it varies. I thought it would be possible to adjust things in a way that they sound good on everything, but it seems to me now that is is not possible. It seems the HiFi world that I refer to and the rest of the audio world are two different universe.

 

Normally, I wouldn't be as heavy-handed when doing a "master" like I did with yours, but I wanted to carve as much as possible out of it. Other people here gave pretty accurate reasons as to why it doesn't sound exactly right, if you work on cleaning up the mid frequencies, it shouldn't need much work at all to get a good master out of it. I think you're halfway through there, and maybe the things you can't notice are happening because of the way your room is set up.

Like I said, be free to use it in any way you want, you don't need to credit me or anything. I'm glad that you seem to like it. If you ever need anything, just PM me here and we will figure something out. Right now, I'm in the middle of figuring out a proper site where someone would be able to check my work and reach me properly. Getting all the music ready for it is taking me longer than coding the site.

 

Cannot do certain things like you describe, but not your fault, you don't know the technics in this music. You can't modify the bass to be harmonic in this music. This comes from the technique: they play the bass in a way that it is alternating between a low note and high notes. The low note is called: kick note. That note is chord independant. They mimic the kick drum with it. So for example there is an CGFG progression in the song, but the base low bass note stays the same all along. This results in a kind of disharmony, or dissonance. To counter it, these bass players usually turn down the highs, and play as near to the middle of the fretboard as possible to eliminate the harmonics of that low kick note. This way that kick note becomes a bit neutral, you don't really notice it is not changing with the chord. If I reverse this, and raise the high on the bass, I gess you understand now problem will start appearing. You cannot do that in this music.

My friend in this song plays a bit differently. His technique is closer to how bassists normally plays in other parts of the world. But yet due to the usual practices, EQ-ed his bass as it is usually done.

Here is an example anyway how bass works in this music: you can see the player's hand is above the fretboard, and can hear how it is EQed. Watch from 1:40.

 

Because millions of people actually do, go outside, every third person have ear bud in their ears, half of people I work with have one ear bud on them all the time for music and phone calls, it's rare that people listen to music in perfect triangle on full range speakers, so yeah, if you job is to mix something for someone that actually wants his music to be listened by those people, yeah, you should actually care. If you are making music for your own enjoyment, who cares really, except you.

 

You should mix in such a way that every instrument comes into its own. And if two instruments have the same or similar frequency, you will separate them using the EQ.

You should always make sure to record good source material, which means playing your instrument perfectly, good microphones and good singing technique, playing your guitar with new guitar strings, using professional cables and a recording room that meets modern requirements. With this source material, it is better to go to the recording maestro and he will turn a good recording into a great recording.

From the generation I come from, many people had and still have a 31 or 15 etc. band EQ for their stereo system, which was placed under or above the amplifier, here is an example:

Main features
- Two channels with 31 frequency bands each allow precise control of the sound
- Get great sound in any room, face any acoustic challenge and sound great
- Adjustment range of ±12 dB or ±6 dB for larger or more precise changes
- Fantastic clarity with less than 0.003% total harmonic distortion