rendering before mastering? advantages?

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by petrrr, Nov 6, 2022.

  1. petrrr

    petrrr Kapellmeister

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    if you are going to self master

    is there any advantage about rendering before mastering? except faster processing cpu i guess

    thanks
     
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  3. Arabian_jesus

    Arabian_jesus Audiosexual

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    Best Answer
    Mastering plug-ins can be very CPU heavy, so you are freeing up a ton of CPU by exporting the song before you master it.

    Aside from that, you can also benefit from the fact that you are committing to the mix as is. If you master your song directly in the mixing project, and your mastering effects changes the balance and tone of the song, it's much more likely that you will go to the individual tracks and busses to fix a problem rather than changing your mastering approach. This could be seen as a bad habit, because if the mix sounds good, then your mastering chain shouldn't change the balance and tone so much that you will have to go back to the mix and change something.

    There ofc are occasions when a mastering engineer tells the client to change something in the mix because it just won't work when mastering, but if you know that your mix has a good peak to average ratio, you have left decent headroom, it's not already to heavily compressed and you have a decent balance in the low end, then your mix should be good to master.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2022
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  4. Arabian_jesus

    Arabian_jesus Audiosexual

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    Btw, when I export my mixes I usually do it in 32-bit FP, and at the same sample rate as the song is recorded in ofc (to avoid any unnecessary sample rate conversion). You don't have to export to 32-bit FP, but I rather keep everything in as high of a quality as possible until the final exporting of the song, to the various bit and sample rates needed for different formats.

    I have Reaper set to render "apply FX, glue, freeze etc" to 32-bit FP for this reason as well. You can change this in Project Settings under the Media tab. If you have plenty of drive space this shouldn't be an issue, but if you don't have much space to spare you can leave it at "Automatic: 24-bit WAV".
     
  5. clone

    clone Audiosexual

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    Your first answer sentence is perfect. The rest of the workflow stuff is dependent upon the user and their choice of DAW. Or even the combination of different ones. Because he is not sending it to anyone.

    In this scenario, of a user "self mastering", they are probably also "self-producing" and "self-mixing" as well. So sample rate conversions are really an immaterial discussion. They would all enter at the DAW's bit and session depth of the project at some point already. Unless the producer is making lo-fi, there is no reason to not upsample the material during it's initial import or internal recording. It's not even an internal bounce of difference. The first set of stems cements this to whatever your DAW's internal bitrate/session depth is at that point in time as well. All you accomplish by not doing it earlier, as impressive it is that REAPER can; it's just procrastination to upsampling time later. And a good way to overly complicate something within your explanation.

    It also lets you check how much you like the sound of any dithering up/down that will happen with each converted piece of material individually. Rather than the sum of it across all your channels at one time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2022
  6. mk_96

    mk_96 Audiosexual

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    All the above + consider that at times mastering is done to not one song but an entire album/ep. You can't do that (comfortably) unless you either render the mixes first or have one big ass mixing session which could be very resource heavy even for high end machines.

    Also, mastering can get fairly complicated, some people would go as far as using different compressors or EQs for differnt sections of a song, manually turn knobs as the song goes, etc. That's just extra headache that you don't want to add on top of an already busy session
     
  7. Sinus Well

    Sinus Well Audiosexual

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    You can't master your own stuff. So don't worry about it. Just make a good mix.
     
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  8. starkid84

    starkid84 Producer

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    The answer is as follows:

    If self mastering a single song, there is no benefit (besides CPU load potentially being lower). If CPU consumption is not a concern then full session mastering actually provides advantages that the 'old way' of mastering does not, such as being able to tweak and make adjustments on the fly as you hear what the mastering chain is doing to your mix. For example, I always keep at minimum a limiter on my master bus, and mix through it as it helps me get an idea of what the finish product will sound like once maximized. To me this is an invaluable workflow technique even if you aren't going to master your own songs. It helps you avoid any unexpected surprises during mastering.

    Anyone who says you can't master your own songs are behind the times and don't understand how things have progressed. Not to devalue any skillful mastering engineers talent, but modern engineers are expected to be able to serve as mixing and mastering engineers, especially on smaller releases. It's rare that I see independent release that is sent to mastering houses nowadays. Even major label releases really aren't getting much treatment from mastering engineers today. Mixes and albums are many times sent out for mastering just as an old school protocol, even though the mastering engineer may send it back with minimal or no changes. That's because best mix engineers are no longer relying on mastering to fix or polish anything, because all of the tools for mastering are available to everyone.

    Both Serban Ghenea, and his partner John Hanes, as well as Jaycen Joshua are examples a few engineers that send their mixes off pretty much finished, and will tell the mastering engineer "if you can enhance it at all, go ahead" But many times now a days, a little maximizing and formatting is all the mastering engineer will do. Here is an interview with John Hanes about him and Serban's process, search for the section where he talks about their 'mastering bus': https://gearspace.com/board/interviews/1362525-interview-john-hanes.html

    I've heard both mixes from Serban, and Jaycen before mastering and can tell you the difference for some mixes after mastering were zero.

    In short there is very little need delegate mastering into a separate stage, especially if doing singles. For an album, worked on by different mix engineers, a more traditional mastering approach makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  9. Genoveva Bernhard

    Genoveva Bernhard Producer

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    What @starkid84 said - I agree. The word 'master' gets thrown around loosely nowadays. Many times, a label will say, "Don't master your tracks. We'll master it for you. Submit them between -20dB and -3dB."

    What the label is actually going to do is make sure all the tracks peak at -1dB or -0.5dB so there is uniformity and consistency across the entire disk. They don't master in the sense that they tune the kick to the bass, level the vocals, reduce resonance in string patches, bring the background vocals forward, and so on. They can't because they'd need the individual stems.
     
  10. Trurl

    Trurl Audiosexual

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    That's literally what mastering used to be. It was to make songs conform in a project, that or be within tech limits to survive cutting to vinyl. It was NOT some magical final stage of the mix. George Martin and Alan Parsons didn't sit around going, wow, these mixes are good, I can't wait until they come back from mastering. That was it. If anything, they worked hard to ensure that what got cut to the album reflected what they had done.
     
  11. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

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    Sure you can. Just make a bad mix and a good (stem) mastering, problem solved. :rofl:
     
  12. clone

    clone Audiosexual

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    It was preparation for Manufacturing of a Product, along with everything we refer to it now as. This includes the preparation of Acetate Glass Masters (aka dub plates), which the artist would most certainly get to listen to prior to agreeing to make a million vinyl/cassete/ or whatever other media real copies, with their names all over them. At minimum their engineers checking them. My point is, yes they were truly waiting on every little stage of this stuff. Just like now, likely a lot worse turnaround times on every one of them. (delays).
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
  13. Trurl

    Trurl Audiosexual

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    But the point was to preserve the sound for the limitations of the respective medium, not expect some kind of improvement. For essentially transparent mediums like open reel tape and later cd there would be no mastering beyond making it not clip. Adding eq and compression would be considered a sacrilege against the producer's mix. It was vinyl where compromises had to be made. The idea of "the mastering guy will make it sound better" came in with home and project studios.
     
  14. clone

    clone Audiosexual

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    Yes I completely get it from the perspective of your point, because it is 100% true or as close as necessary. There was no "make it quietly and bring it up to full volume inside the computer" stage that people now call mastering. This has only really become standard fare since our machines have all become so much more resources rich. higher bitrates, more headroom, and so on. But whatever you call Post, the idea of Paul McCartney sitting around with his thumb up his ass waiting to listen to it, is most likely not what happened in reality either. Those two things can co-exist. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
  15. Trurl

    Trurl Audiosexual

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    No, I agree. When they heard the mix in the studio, it was done.
     
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