Questions regarding Stereo Imaging

Discussion in 'Mixing and Mastering' started by MaXe, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. MaXe

    MaXe Ultrasonic

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    How can I put something behind the head with Stereo imaging?
    The plugin DearVRPro puts elements behind the head in Stereo output format.
    I know that I have to mess with Reflections and delays. But I don't exactly know how I can reproduce the same effect that plugin produces. I did delay left and right channel in relation to each other but the effect was nothing like the one I get with this plugin. Note that it is producing such effect in Stereo format (Not binaural format which uses HRTF filters)
    Please give a formula, like a set of instructions(Plugin chain and the steps which should be handled to properly place sound anywhere in stereo field)
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. MaXe

    MaXe Ultrasonic

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    And I wonder how professional mixers do all those Stereo imaging of individual elements of mix in a busy track since for any element to get a good stereo image it takes complex plugin chain! Probably I am wrong, Correct me if I am wrong.
     
  4. SquareDjay

    SquareDjay Platinum Record

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    The phase offset,comb filters,frequencies,are as important as delay and reflections..Search a plugin that can set any phase value.
    I don't know the formula,try different settings.

    Try the Melda TurboReverb(awesome plugin by the way),and go to its webpage;the guy behind Melda explains in some videos how a reverb works;and in Turboreverb you can create your own reverb(or space sound) algorithm.Maybe it will be a good starting point.

    https://www.meldaproduction.com/MTurboReverb
     
  5. Baxter

    Baxter Audiosexual

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    Are you talking about ambisonic audio? There are a few ambisonic and binaural plugins out there.

    The HRTF is (as mentioned) affecting phase/Haas, absorbtion/filtering (hair, skin, flesh, clothing, etc). It's multiple parameters you have to take into the equation. Also the ear shapes the sound differently when coming from behind (more direct) than when it's coming from front (ear "shapes" the sound, and all ears (shapes/sizes) are different).
     
  6. MaXe

    MaXe Ultrasonic

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    Well those tutorials were good but didn't give enough insight about Stereo imaging, positioning regarding my question.
    It is still a quite mystery how one can put a certain element in specific location in STEREO field.
     
  7. MaXe

    MaXe Ultrasonic

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    As I mentioned I am NOT talking about Ambisonics or Binaural sound mixing.
     
  8. junh1024

    junh1024 Platinum Record

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    But DearVR IS a binaural / HRTF implementation. You can't produce the same effect with delay/EQ/reverb because it's so complex.

    Stereo mode in DEARVR just changes a few things so that it's compatible for speaker playback.

    See my list for the rest. WAVEARTS PANORAMA is the only other speaker HRTF implementation i know of.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...SUL5SlWSDGZBhnDXg4RqD_0B8_QXINTYr_U6p/pubhtml
     
  9. Baxter

    Baxter Audiosexual

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    I want to drink tea but I don't want to use water in my tea.
     
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  10. MaXe

    MaXe Ultrasonic

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    So you are claiming that I should use HRTF filters for positioning sound in Stereo? Is it Stereo compatible? Because DearVR as shown above has Stereo compatible output format. Is there any way to use HRTF filters so they are compatible with Stereo output?
     
  11. SquareDjay

    SquareDjay Platinum Record

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    The principles are the same.
    But to reproduce what a plugin like dearVR does is probably boring and difficult.
     
  12. Baxter

    Baxter Audiosexual

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    What I mean is that ambisonic plugins and DearVR most likely uses HRTF (Head Related Transfer Function) already. It's a combination of things, as mentioned earlier (azimuth, Haas, combing, height, depth, etc). I don't have the equation for it though, as I'm neither a physician nor a mathematician.

    I'm more of a sound explorer and have made quite a lot of in-ear binaural recordings (as well as using a Jecklin disk). But you can read more about localization here:
    http://perception.inrialpes.fr/~Horaud/POP/TutorialsFEB06/SueHarding.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  13. MaXe

    MaXe Ultrasonic

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    I read that article. It gave useful insights but still that does not help me with anything since it was pure theory and some experimentation on ears. What I am looking for is a practical way to be able to place sound in Stereo field without losing quality.
     
  14. Ballz

    Ballz Member

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    Why don't you just use the DearVR plugin?
     
  15. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    Very hard to recreate without ambisonic plugin. In that sort of plug you have spat by ircam, I mean the one before before they released spat revolution, a few months back, the plugin version, spat revolution is stand alone and a freaking factory. Spat the plug (so v3 I think, R2R released it till the last version) has more options than dearVR.
    I've tried to accomplish with a serie of different plugs what you're trying, so far to no avail.
    I've tested with the many fun - and free, but don't forget his patreon - spacialisation, mid side, stereo plugins from airwindows.
    Distance 1 and 2, EdisDim, wider...and a few more I get interesting results but nothing like dearVR pro or Spat. Maybe if I add stuffs from nugen...I don't know...
    I use dearVR pro now, since I am legit with flux/ircam plugins, and I got them after they stopped making Spat 3 in plugin version, so I don't want to use the pirated version. The spat revolution thingy is an expensive overkill for me.
     
  16. junh1024

    junh1024 Platinum Record

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    You need speaker-optimized HRTF implementations.

    ====
    Note about terminology: Ambisonics is a 4-channel (or more) 3D audio system which has got NOTHING to do with binaural/HRTF which is 2- channel (but they are vaguely related in that they can be used for 3D audio, and ambisonics audio can be converted to binaural/HRTF). If you're referring to binaural/HRTF, please use binaural/HRTF instead.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  17. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    Cheers for the precision, man. Ambisonic and binaural are different indeed, although both related to 3d spacialization technics.
    But Spat revolution handles ambisonic encodings and uses several technics of spacialization (included binaural).
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  18. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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  19. junh1024

    junh1024 Platinum Record

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  20. Talmi

    Talmi Audiosexual

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    No hear is another different plug. And spat isn't a daw. It works in your daw. Hear and spat do different thing.
    Spat is a 3d mixing solution that you use with your daw (https://www.flux.audio/project/spat-revolution/), hear is for 3d space headphone rendering (https://www.flux.audio/project/ircam-hear-v3/) like redline monitor for instance, also usable in your daw.
    Spat is both available for your daw and spectacularly more powerfull than the other solutions your spreadsheet offers for those needs.

    Edit : Flux.IRCAM.Tools.1.1.v3.5.29 by our friend from Japan was the last version (I think) released with the vst only version of spat (so this one http://forumnet.ircam.fr/product/ircam-tools-flux-spat-en/). If you want to test.
    R2R also released Spat revolution when it came out.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  21. MaXe

    MaXe Ultrasonic

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    It seems to color the sound quite extensively! The other reason I don't use DearVR plugin is I don't really know the correct way to mix the sound going through since I don't even have any idea regarding what happened to sound. Like doing mid/side processing on such output, is it a common practice? There is not lots of information available on the proper usage of the plugin for Stereo mixing, mixing music.
     
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