Question concerning sus2 and sus4 chords

Discussion in 'Education' started by MozartEstLa, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. MozartEstLa

    MozartEstLa Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    211
    Location:
    France
    Hello,

    I'm relatively newbee concerning music theory, but I understand the Maj, min, dim, and aug chords construction (per semitones), root position and their inversions (except "rank" of inversions - but I'm learning).

    But something looks strange in my mind about either sus2 and sus4 chords:
    - sus2 is root note + 2 semitones + 5 semitones (major 2nd + perfect 4th from middle note).
    Example: C-D-G

    - sus4 is root note + 5 semitones + 2 semitones (perfect 4th + major 2nd from middle note).
    Example: C-F-G

    Hope I'm right...

    But I've noticed sus2 and sus4 seems identical in some circumstances, in particular their inversions (if exist and if possible, I don't know).

    For same played sus2 chord (C-D-G, or inversion), Scaler 2 returns sus2, while midiChordAnalyzer returns... sus4 ;)

    Sincerely hope my question is understandable (my English isn't perfect).
    Thanks in advance for your help, it will be appreciated!
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  2.  
  3. dkny

    dkny Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2015
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    155
    Csus2 or Gsus4, so I guess the second app is reading the chord as a G, not a C.
     
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    • List
  4. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    6,348
    Likes Received:
    4,435
    Location:
    Europe
    Right, according to my piano teacher (looong time ago) both of the explanations are wrong.
    sus means the 3rd is suspended by eihter the 2nd or the 4th.
    E.g. Csus2 = C-D-G, Csus4 = C-F-G.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  5. dt68

    dt68 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    17
    A little bit of confusion here... The type of interval inside a chord has always to be taken from the root note and not from one note to the next one. I.E. a major chord is formed by root + major third + perfect fifth. A minor chord is root + minor third + perfect fifth. The third in these chord is the note that creates the sense of a major or minor chord sound (happy or positive the first, sad and blue the second). A suspended chord removes the third (so that you cannot say if it's a major or minor chord anymore... it is suspended). A sus2 is a suspended chord with a 2nd major added and a sus4 is a suspended chord with a perfect 4th added. So sus2 = root + 2nd major + perfect fifth and sus4 = root+ perfect 4th + perfect fifth. That said, a Csus2 is formed by C-D-G and its second inversion is G-C-D that you can both identify as the second inversion (the root C goes on the middle of the chord) of a Csus2 or a Gsus4 chord (if you take the G as the new root note instead of the C). How you will call it and identify depends on the tonality of the song and from the "use" of the chord you intend... (see functional harmony...)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    • List
  6. BaSsDuDe

    BaSsDuDe Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2021
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    680
    Labels are interesting. Frank Zappa highly favoured the 'sus2' chord as it is called here. On some charts that chord is often represented say if a G triad as a 'G2'. Here is a video with Ruth Underwood the Marimba player for Frank Zappa for a long time explaining how much of his sound was created by replacing the third with the major 2nd.

    The sus4 has a definitive purpose. In many theory books they'll refer to it in terms of a cadence where it tends to point back to the root of the harmonic structure. For example simply, Gsus4 some may consider it points back to a C whereas a G2 (sus2) won't necessarily. Then you have a sus 9 which has both the suspended 4th and the major 2nd(up an octave). However, there are tunes written completely on suspended chords that follow no cadence principles whatsoever (Maiden Voyage by Herbie Hancock as one example of many).

    @MozartEstLa I can see why the confusion. It is more than reasonable to ask if Gsus2 has G,A and D, isn't it the same as Dsus4 with D,G and A? The short answer is yes they are the same if they are played in the higher register. The bass note determines which of the two it is.
    There are a lot of chord structures that are dependent on the bass note to determine which it is. Another example is G7(b5). If the bass note is Db, it is Db7(b5).
    Cheers

     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  7. Ŧยχøя

    Ŧยχøя Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2020
    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    625
    Location:
    Neverland
    The above answers are right, sus chords have No Third..
    sus2 = root, 2nd, 5th
    sus4 = root, 4th, 5th

    However notice that, most of the time (but not always!)
    we're actually playing sus9 and sus11 chords..

    We put the 2 and 4 on a higher octave,
    so they don't clash as much with the Tonic, and that makes them more stable..

    And that's specially true with the 4rth, as it could clash strongly with the 5th,
    or create excessive ambiguity (some styles of music actually focus/benefit from that tho..)
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Love it! Love it! x 1
    • List
  8. Riviera

    Riviera Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2021
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    9
    :like:

    To the OP:
    sus2 and sus4 are not chords. They are just some note stacks being used by jazz musicians. You can not get satisfying answer from jazz because they don't know what they are doing, let alone explaining them to you.:wink:
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
    • List
  9. Academia

    Academia Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2020
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    84
    sus2 is a major 2nd and a 5th, not a 4th.

    The problem you mention probably happens because midiChordAnalyzer (never worked with it) considers the first note of the triad the root note. In Csus2, the first inversion is D-G-C, and the second inversion is G-C-D. This G-C-D chord could be interpreted as Csus2 in the second inversion, or Gsus4 in natural order. Taking a look at the key signature should let you know how to read that chord.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  10. MozartEstLa

    MozartEstLa Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    211
    Location:
    France
    Thanks, but they're named "suspended chords", aren't? - exotic, I can admit it. ;)
    For example, here https://arisbassblog.com/sus2-sus4-sus7-just-plain-sus-suspense/ but they're many website they mention them as "chord"...
    But you're right about usage, such in many jazz pieces.
    It's was only for knowledge, I don't play jazz, but I like to understand...
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  11. MozartEstLa

    MozartEstLa Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    211
    Location:
    France
    Yes, because it's a bad explanation from about sus2, because I've used "2nd major" for first interval (ok at this point) and "perfect 4th" / 5 semitones for interval between second and third note (instead of root note to third note - in this case I totally agree it's a perfect 5th = 7 semitones!).

    For a minor we're always saying Root + minor 3rd + perfect 5th (but from root note, instead of... previous). It's where I'm wrong about mine explanation! I always count starting previous note :)

    Please consider it's only for my information, to increase a bit mine knowledges (for a 58-yrs old brain) - be sure I remain "dumb" about (very complex) music theory!

    Thank you very much!
    Thanks to all users here, I never imagine a lot of replies on my "newbie" question.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  12. MozartEstLa

    MozartEstLa Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    211
    Location:
    France
    Thanks to all persons for your replies here, very interesting really.
    Human learn everyday, everytime (it's my philosophy). :yes:
     
  13. MozartEstLa

    MozartEstLa Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    211
    Location:
    France
    Hello to everybody here, having replied - all of your replies here are very instructive, for theory, story, anecdotes, usage...
    Sincerely appreciated, thank so much to all users here!
    And remains complex for my (old) brain.
     
  14. Academia

    Academia Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2020
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    84
    Oh, MozaetEstLa, I see it now, you mentioned a major 2nd (C to D) and a fourth (D to G). Sorry, my fault, I learned to read always from the root (C to D and C to G), but whatever system that helps you read and understand a chord is OK.

    Just wanted to say that you should not feel uncomfortable asking "newbie" questions here. This is a small but incredible community, and some folks here do know a REAL lot of music theory, and if you ask nicely (as you did), many folks here will stop and explain whatever you want to know. And yes, I learn a lot here, too. :)
    Good luck!
     
  15. droplet

    droplet Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2020
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    259
    Location:
    up up and away
    Audiosex is the best blog in the world because of the members and the moderators.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Love it! Love it! x 1
    • List
  16. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    1,679
    Its true that every sus4 is also a different sus2 and vice versa

    Let's take example key of C major .

    CDEFGABC

    1. CEG......Sus4..CFG........sus2.......CDG
    2. DFA.......Sus4..DGA.......sus2.......DEA
    3. EGB.......Sus4..EAB.......sus2........EFB
    4. FAC.......Sus4..FBC........sus2.......FGC
    5. GBD.......Sus4..GCD.......sus2.......GAD
    6. ACE.......Sus4..ADE........sus2......ABE
    7. BDF........Sus4..BEF........sus2.......BCF

    Look for the sus4 that are sus2 and the sus2 that are sus4

    We can see that relationship
    ( that sus connects different triads )
     
Loading...
Similar Threads - Question concerning sus2 Forum Date
Question concerning Kontakt 6 on Mac Mavericks Kontakt Nov 16, 2019
Dumb question regarding Falcon arpeggiator Software Yesterday at 6:32 AM
Audionews.org question Lounge Yesterday at 12:16 AM
Adult cam sites addiction question Lounge Nov 24, 2021
Vital Synth question - mod wheel matrix Working with Sound Nov 22, 2021
Loading...