Problems with limiter

Discussion in 'Mixing and Mastering' started by Shu_, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. Shu_

    Shu_ Newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi. Could anyone explain me why in every of my tracks peak level look like this?
    [​IMG]
    What does it exactly mean? Is my track too loud?
    Every time I put limiter/maximizer on my song it sounds so bad and compressed...


    This is my mix loundness level:
    [​IMG]
     
  2.  
  3. GoldenEar

    GoldenEar Ultrasonic

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    24
    What else is in your master chanel except for a limiter?
     
  4. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Location:
    Europe
    I suppose you're speaking of the main/master out of your DAW?

    The level of all channels is summed up in the main out and therefore if their levels are too high, you'll get such a high level in the main out.

    A limiter limits the signal to max 0dB! If you apply a limter in the main out which has a peak of +10dB, it will push down the signal for +10dB and this will not sound good. Try to stay below 0dB peak.

    Just pull the channel faders down and the problem is solved.


    Welcome to THE forum.
     
  5. Shu_

    Shu_ Newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi. Thanks for the quick answer. If i understand correctly - you suggest me to turn down the volume of all individual tracks so my master peak is below 0 dB, right?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • List
  6. Shu_

    Shu_ Newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    2
    EQ
     
  7. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Location:
    Europe
    Exactly.
    If you subgroup your channels you can do it there too, but take care of those channels which are not subgrouped, but directly routed to the main out (reverb, for instance).
     
  8. Shu_

    Shu_ Newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    2
    I've significantly decreased the volume of my channels. None of them actually peak above 0db.
    My master looks like this now:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    It's not +15dB like before by why is it still peaking if my mix is below 0db?
    Also the track sounds a lot less energetic and punchy now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  9. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Location:
    Europe
    Because the channels are summed up.
    Two channels with white noise, each peaking at 0dB sum up to +6dB! If each is lowered by 3dB, which should result in 6dB less level, the peak is still at +3dB.
    It's less with music, but you get the idea. Just select all channels and pull them down as far as neccessary.

    It sounds less powerful because it's not so loud anymore. That's normal due to the way we perceive loudness. Just turn up your speakers volume and you're good.

    Your loudness meter shows higher True Peak than your main out. If you have a limiter before the meter look for an ISP (Inter Sample Peak) option in the limiter and turn it on.
     
  10. SineWave

    SineWave Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Location:
    The darkest pit of my mind
    Your track levels are still too loud, actually. :sad:

    There shouldn't be any peaking above 0 on the master channel. You would be surprised how low my track channels can be to achieve a good sounding mix that goes up to -3dB on the master channel. You say now it sounds less energetic and punchy? Actually it should sound more energetic and punchy. :wink: Rest your ears for a couple of hours and then try again.

    A little tip: if you want to limit something, do it on the track, or even better on a group/bus channel , not on the master. Master channel goes directly into your DA converters and they don't sound as they should when you give them such hot signal. Most DA converters sound their best at about -6 to -3 dB peak level. The better the DA, the higher you can go.

    Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  11. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Location:
    Europe
    Mh, I rarely use limiters in single channels. In sub groups a bit and of course in the master, again a bit, with ISP on and -1dB out. In the master only when mastering not when mixing ofc.
     
  12. relexted

    relexted Kapellmeister

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Since ableton's mixer is linear you can just use a gain/trim plugin on the master output and lower the overall volume with that.
    This way the original mix won't get damaged due to fader resolutions.
    Lowering all faders will result in lack of punch and energy.
    Keep in mind for future projects:
    Headroom = -6db peaks = never clip the converter = don't red light the master fader.:suicide:
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Love it! Love it! x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  13. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Location:
    Europe
    You care to elaborate?

    With 32bit floating point even clipping the master doesn't matter at all, as long as you don't insert a limiter which will limit the signal down to 0dB again.
     
  14. relexted

    relexted Kapellmeister

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Digital workstation fader resolution is highest on unity gain.
    That's how the 0's and 1's work. The more bits you feed in a fader the more bits to calculate = best resolution.

    Who has a 32bit converter anyway? I'd like one, but in practise we have a 24bit converter. working in 32bit floating point makes no sense when your 24bit converter can't handle it. right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  15. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Location:
    Europe
    I was speaking of the internal resolution of a DAW.
     
  16. relexted

    relexted Kapellmeister

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Maybe we need another topic.
     
  17. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Location:
    Europe
    Speaking of off topic (sorry OP)
    So, you think you can tell which parts are made with channel at 0dB and which at -20dB??? Both normalized, ofc.
    Hint: they don't change within a bar.

     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  18. Shu_

    Shu_ Newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thank you so much @No Avenger and @SineWave !

    Now my master is looking like this :)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Now It's time to use limiter for a loudness boost, right?
     
  19. SquareDjay

    SquareDjay Platinum Record

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    556
    Likes Received:
    213
    Location:
    France
    This is the first time I listen somebody saying it's better to lower the gain in the master channel than lower all the tracks' faders.

    When mixing you don't care about loudness,stay between -6db to -3db peak max.

    It is better to have this headroom for mastering.

    Loudness is the job of the mastering stage.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    • List
  20. relexted

    relexted Kapellmeister

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    3rd bar sounds softy. That's the fifth kickdrum. And maybe the waveform gives it away? What do you think yourself after this fun experiment?
     
  21. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Location:
    Europe
    Err, with a rms of -7dB??? Just a tiny bit, that would be loud enough. You still want to make music, not corpses, don't you? :winker:
     
Loading...
Loading...