Pragmatic Jazz Theory (how we use Tonal Jazz theory to actually make music in reality.)

Discussion in 'Education' started by MMJ2017, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    MMj
    dear sir
    you are a champion of harmony...i thank you for such wonderful insights....much appreciated....i am excited by this new info and struggling to absorb it all...i wonder if you would indulge me a small example........i am working on a track...it is in Eb maj however i have transposed the chords so far to C (for my benefit) i am trying to understand how that info about the maj6th dim scale progression could be used to write my next section...... the chords so far
    C . . . (G/Bb no 3) ... F/A...C...C . . . (G/Bb no 3) ... F/A.. Gsus..Eb6..D min7..C maj7
    id appreciate any insight man......id like to use that technique where the G# added to the scale makes it a Gmaj6 dim scale..(is this the bebop scale?) thnx in advance
    jack
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  2. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    absolutely my friend!


    so there is way to help remember the maj6 and in C majKEY that means the natural Min7 ACEG
    you take First note and pin it on the END so Amin7 ACEG the A in front goes to END CEGA that gives you CMAJ6th
    next , there is way to help remember the min6, so in KEY of Cmaj you take the vii% BDFA and like before put the first note last so..
    BDFA becomes DFAB (Dmin6th
    so as a short cut you can remember vi chord of CmajKEY becomes Cmaj6 , and the vii% chord becomes Dmin6
    now once you have that , you find the dim7 chord that is one whole step above the tonic of the 6th chord.
    (this dimish7 chord works as a dominant which goes with the 6th chord which dominant it is , the tonic of that dim is the 5th of the dominant 7th chord)
    for example
    we have Cmaj6 ( we remember the vi is Amin7 ACEG we put the A tack on end, CEGA is Cmaj6
    next step with go one step up to D that is the dim7 so Ddim7 and it is the fifth of the dom7 chord so Ddim7 functions as G7
    lets see the notes of D dim7, DFG#B , it is = to G7flat9 no root

    now that we have the 6th and its dim7 we map out the notes
    CEGA DFG#B
    next we make al the inversions
    CEGA DFG#B
    EGAC FG#BD
    GACE G#BDF
    ACEG BDFG#

    now to remember the min6th dim all we have to do is take what we already have and flatten the third to get the min6 and its dim7

    CD#GA DFG#B
    D#GAC FG#BD
    GACD# G#BDF
    ACD#G BDFG#



    the next section i am about to write for pragmatic jazz theory is going to get right into the Eflat key and how to make more connections back to C maj key and F#maj key and A maj key , please check that out fine sir! thank you for your time!
     
  3. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    much appreciated MMj...... i will continue my studies......now to work out how to write the next section of my tune....uummm
     
  4. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    for fun!


     
  5. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    here is a way to make melodies from Cmaj7 chord



    so IF we have a chord chart of

    Cmaj7 for 4 bars

    we can turn that into many things

    Dmin7, G7, Cmaj7

    Cmaj6, Ddim7,then inversions

    Emin7,G7ALT, Amin7

    https://www.basicmusictheory.com/g-sharp-melodic-minor-scale

    millions of options!

    chord tones on the "on" beat
    non chord tones and grace notes on the "off" beat or "and"

    1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and

    and is the "off" beat the swung beat
    so its like

    1 n2 n3 n4 n1 n2 n3 n4 n
    the "n" is "and"
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  6. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    APPLICATION of JAZZ THEORY-
    --------------------

    When we see a chord symbol like Cmaj7 (from KEY of Cmaj)
    it represents the foundation, scaffolding of what the music will be.
    its what all the instruments will add up to be
    the bass instrument outline the root and chord type ( like I,ii,iii,V)
    the keyboard or guitar comping highlights the 3rd and the 7th to give the chord type
    the lead instruments give melodies and outline chords and scales including the upper structure tones.

    lets say we have a ii V I in Cmaj KEY (Dmin7,G7,Cmaj7)

    there are 2 separate notes we can use that have the ability to ring the entire duration.

    the A note can ring for all 3 chords
    the D note can ring for all 3 chords

    it can be said whatever KEY you are in the vi, and the ii notes have that ability.

    take the A note.

    it is the 3rd of the DMin7 it is the 9th of the G7 it is the 6th of cmaj7 (or root of Amin7)


    take the D note

    it is the root of Dmin7 it is the 5th of G7 and it is the 9th of Cmaj9


    if you want to start off practicing minimalist melodies that outline the ii V I.
    the A and D ringing out for whole duration of 3 chords is great start.

    to practice this way have one or the other of those notes be your deep bass note that rings the whole duration.

    next we focus in on the most important notes of any chord for melody the 3rd and 7th's

    Dmin7 3rd is F 7th is C, G7 3rd, is B 7th is F Cmaj7 E is 3rd and B is 7th

    lets take a minimalist example.

    say we have the low register bass note D ring the whole time that is our bassline(our first note on 1 count

    next our melody notes are going to be in upper register.

    Lets now put a D note shorter then F which rings longer then down to the C note shorter up to a E note longer
    back to the D note which rings long time

    go up to A note with 2 short stabs, down to G quick stab F quick stab back up to G rings out longer then back down to E which rings out until the end.
    now repeat the whole riff.


    the bass note D that rings whole time represents all chords.

    next the next 2 notes D and F ,C and E outline the Dmin9 tonality,
    next the A and G note and the D outline the G9
    Finally the G and E plus the low bass D note outline a Cmaj9

    we have been able to create a harmonically strong progression of

    Dmin9,G9,Cmaj9

    while at the same time using one of the most minimalist possible melodies ( with no other sound at all but the melody)

    most important the demonstrates how to use the theory ( as a foundation)to create any type of genre we want any sound we want.

    practice this exercise though repeating it and when you get comfortable enough try to create more like this!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  7. zorgbop

    zorgbop Noisemaker

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    "sure you can Cmaj11 CEGBDF"

    OK bro , i wanted to help you and others .
    I stop .
    Think what you want dude , write what you want , but i know that you have not been playing with no one that "plays" .
    You see dude , i gave only two examples of pragmatic stuff one about all the things you are , and the other about the way tensions are used
    inthe Ellington Classic "Prelude to a kiss" .
    My father was (he don't play so much now) a jazz musician that played with all the great cats in the late 5O's and sixties .
    I started playing with him professionaly in 1977 , they where my first gigs .Then i went to study with the guitar teacher of the CIM in Paris (Paris jazz school at that time) .After that i went to Berklee but did not stay as long as i was planning to beacause i did not like the institution there
    and the guitar teacher was not half as good as my teacher in Paris (Neither as good as teacher or player) .
    Then i came back home and i had the luck to meet and play with a guy who became a great one and made a very succesful career .Very
    nice warm swinging cat that also couls it hit seriously as a session player because of his abilities to read anything and improvise great on the spot .Amazing ears and chops , and a big swinging groove feeling and heart .I met also a monster piano player .We were hanging out in that time gigs were so easy to get and the music industry was not completely spoiled like today . We couls hear Al Jarreau or Earth Wind and Fire
    on famous public radios and so .
    I have 40 years of playing behind me bro ...
    And you are going to tell me something ??? To tell me the most irrelevant comment one can say about fuckin C11chord ? LOL !
    Where do you hear that dude ??? Where ? LOL !
    C'mon my friend , can back on earth , don't be so sure about yourself beacause in the present case it just makes you ridiculous .
    And do not worry my friend , i don't feel attacked by you because even if you were you could not do me any harm .
    You have never been playing this music with good people , or even average players .
    Otherwise it would just be impossible for you to write what you write .
    I mean you are writing (in fact all of your writing about "pragmatic jazz theory") about it in a way that is so confusing compared to the way everyone agrees to speak about music and jazz and harmony .
    It just by itself is a proof that you are talking about this on a purely intellectual level .
    Your ears are not in the game , that is why you can only produce confusion in your mind and in other's mind .
    But the goal of music learning is to fill that gap between theory and ears and soul . Sounds have effect on our soul .
    Hearing is essential .I mean "inner hearing" .And that means that you hear sounds in your head !
    Beethoven composed his las symphonies without hearing them with his physical ears !
    At Berklee i was the one who heard the most accurate in the class , during harmonic dictation (just pencil paper and starting note bro)
    The level was harmony four . That was In 1982 .
    So it feels a little strange when i give advices about something in this forum and the guy who don't know thinks he will teach me something
    that is just result of his delirium and confusion , unexperience , misunderstanding and probably deaf in sense of inner hearing !
    BUT DUDE : YOU ARE RIGHT ! GO ON STAGE AND PLAY CEGBDF CHORD for cmaj AND TELL THEM THAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE WAY AHEAD !

    On You Tube , great kids people clever useful stuff
    Aimenolte
    Jeff Schneider
    Jazzduets
    Mattotto site .free of stuff some very advanced (No very advanced if you can't handle basic stuff otherwise it ends up by BS like yours)

    Sorry guys , I could maybe have invest some time giving infos but ...



     
  8. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    When you have a V7ALTered going to Imaj11
    In other words instances where the dominant is very tense.
    But it is possible to use anytime you have a V to I ( and you make the dominant tense as possible)
    It has nothing to do with "myself" i have never spoken about myself there is no information about myself.
    I just explained times when you would use a Imaj11, yes there are times you wouldn't also, like i explained its based on how how tense your dominant chord is. i gave you example to try for yourself too
    G7flat5#5,flat9,#9 (GBC#D#G#A#) resolving to Cmaj11 (CEGBDF)
    It has to do with a rule of thumb
    you never have your tonic MORE tense than your dominant you are resolving from.
    you Can resolve from a VERY tense dominant to a tense tonic 11(nat 11)
    other times if your dominant is not very tense, than you wouldn't resolve to a more tense version of tonic.
    its very simple.
    examples please

    eh?
    pull out your daw, now a keyboard now play
    G7flat5#5,flat9,#9 (GBC#D#G#A#) resolving to Cmaj11 (CEGBDF) alternating with G7 to Cmaj7

    loop those and listen to them. ( everyone reading this can "use their ears"
    This is where the problem is, you are making assumptions about people and what they know , that you are starting off at a point where you cannot learn something new, or someone else is below you.
    in reality there zero connection to a personality or individual and how jazz works.
    how jazz works is how jazz works.
    It is not that you gave advice you didnt say that sometimes we dont use 11 tonic, and other tiomes we do, that which determined one from the other is based on how tense teh dominant chord is resolving to its tonic, you never said any of this, that is what I said.
    instead you made statements that didn't include all the information and you didnt explain WHY you wouldn't resolve to tonic sharp 11.
    I will say again
    you never resolve to a tonic more tense than your dominant you are coming from.
    if im playing Dmin7, (DFAC) G7 (GBDF), and tonic is Cmaj11 (CEGBDF)
    you dont do this, it cannot work why?
    because your tonic is more tense than your dominant, removing the purpose and function
    you would instead sharp the 11
    Dmin7, (DFAC) G7 (GBDF), and tonic is Cmaj#11 (CEGBDF#)
    what this does is makes the Cmaj#11 the Lydian chord from G MAJOR key.
    now what is an example where you WOULD resolve to a Cmaj11(CEGBDF)?
    when you have a extremely tense dominant chord you can resolve to a tonic which has some tension
    G7 flat5,#5,flat9,#9(GBC#D#FG#A#) resolving to Cmaj11(CEGBDF)
    and again i invite you to play this in the piano alternating it with a regular plain G7 to Cmaj7.



    here is EXACTLY how it works

    G7 flat5,#5,flat9,#9(GBC#D#FG#A#) resolving to Cmaj11(CEGBDF)


    each note of the dominant and how it resolves.
    G stays the same
    B stays same
    C# resolves down to C
    D# resolves up to E
    F stays same
    G# resolves down to G
    A# resolves up to B

    the F note passes through both the dominant and tonic chord with no problems because there is enough strong resolutions in the remaining notes to create strong melody and harmony function.

    we have enough powerful resolutions which resolve even though the F note just passes through to both chords
    half step resolution is the most powerful resolution.
    now lets compare to G7(GBDF to Cmaj11(CEGBDF

    the G stays same
    the B stays the same
    the D stays the same
    the F stays the same

    we have ZERO resolutions!

    THIS is why it does NOT work to GO
    G7(GBDF to Cmaj11(CEGBDF




    However if we modify to sharp #11
    G7(GBDF to Cmaj11(CEGBDF#
    the G resolves to F#
    the B stays the same
    the D stays the same
    the F resolves to E

    we have enough to resolve to tonic.

    here is another way to make the nat 11 work

    Cmaj11(CEGBDF to Cmaj7 (CEGB to Cmaj (CEG

    you can use the Cmaj11 as a dominant function

    G7(GBDF to Cmaj11 (CEGBDF to Cmaj7( CEGB to Cmaj( CEG


    I think what it is, you have your ears turned pretty good, not a strong theory basis, but your playing is probably very good ,thank you for you story i love to hear about that , i bet you have amazing stories about times you played places and people you met thank you fine sir.
    I don't doubt that your playing is very good sir.
    it is possible to play for 40 years and always resolve to a sharp 11 on tonic i understand that.
    (say if you only have a trio you not going to play a dominant as tense as G7flat5#5flat9sharp( with GBC#D#FG#A# 7 notes hard to divide into a trio so you mostly likely have a 4 piece or more band to play that tense of a dominant i understand that)however if you have a big band or 4 or 5 piece band you commonly play bigger tenser chords and resolutions.

    it is very nice to speak with you my friend.
    this conversation has nothing to do with who i am or who you are but the music theory itself and how the theory works. ( and yes using your ears with the theory also and playing it!)

    JUST for FUN!

    he resolves to nat11 hundreds of times here listen ( albeit less often than he resolves to a # 11.

    the main question is,

    Is it possible to have F pass through a type of G7 chord all the way through a Cmaj7 type chord and yet have that resolution (dom to tonic)as strong as plain G7 to Cmaj?
    the answer YES
    under specific conditions where there is enough strong harmonic resolutions ( tensions in the dominant that resolve)


    G7 flat5,#5,flat9,#9(GBC#D#FG#A#) resolving to Cmaj11(CEGBDF)


    each note of the dominant and how it resolves.
    G stays the same
    B stays same
    C# resolves down to C
    D# resolves up to E
    F stays same
    G# resolves down to G
    A# resolves up to B

    every note of cmaj7 has resolution the C the E the G the B

    NOW here is a simple melody, the "off" beats outline th G7 ALT the "on" beats highlight the Camj7 chord
    we start on the off beat (and)

    C#,C- D#,D - G#,G- A#,B
    and 1 and 2 and 3 and 4

    you can have that melody playing while a F note rings the whole duration.
    there is millions ways to use a cmajj11 (CEGBDF

    here is another

    play D#GC#FA# chord then play GCFB chord
    compare to GBDF to CEG
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
  9. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    here is another simple example of PRAGMATIC
    use of JAZZ theory in minimalistic way ( to get your ear hearing it)

    play notes one after another

    play the A note LOW the rest middle range

    so we alternate DADFAFGAGEAE

    that = Dmin7,G7,Cmaj6th

    same pattern except we play

    FDFDGDGADAEDE

    that= Dmin9,G9,Cmaj9

    so both can add together

    DADFAFGAGEAE , FDFDGDGADAEDE

    it is same as Cmaj7

    (how that works level of detail 1 = Cmaj7, level detail 2 = ii V I)

    if you ever see a Cmaj7 in isolation you can turn it into level 2

    Dmin7,G7,Cmaj7 or another version of level2 = Dmin9,G9,Cmaj9

    so for example anytime you literally played a Cmaj7 chord as CEGB you can swap that out with faster notes of

    DADFAFGAGEAE , FDFDGDGADAEDE
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
  10. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Let's really have some fun now.
    We want to take our understanding of JAZZ theory and put it to good use actually writing.
    The BEST way to do this is start off real simple.
    think of it as your theory is your foundation for all the instruments.
    Next , YOU get to control the detail and complexity of how you put it to use, how you build on top of your foundation.
    If we start with the most minimalist way of building harmonic progression and melody, we can gradually add more and more at a level we are comfortable with.

    say we have C major KEY

    that gives us this.
    Cmaj7

    Next lets add a little movement so we will take our destination in mind (Cmaj7) and before it we will add the dominant 7th chord of this key

    G7, Cmaj7
    G7(GBDF, Cmaj7(CEGB

    SO, what would be the most simple melody which can express this foundation? (which we can build on if we like to make more complex)



    F to E

    say we pick F to down to E

    the half step resolution is powerful
    these 2 simple notes after another
    fully express our JAZZ theory
    G7(GBDF, Cmaj7(CEGB

    we can start from 2 notes and gradually build up more



    We can Add in the B note to ring out the whole duration making it a 3 note melody

    Lower B note rings out
    then add in the upper F (maybe some vibrato) let them ring together and then and with striking the E note.

    Lets move on to adding more

    We have the starting B note ( low register) next we move up to D now let this one ring out into the next notes.
    we hit the F note (vibrato)or double stab with piano) let ring out then hit our ending E note
    That gives us a 4 note melody.

    Each time through we are building on the foundation, we can continue to add to it in our comfort zone while paying close attention to the timings, rhythms, and articulations of each note to customize it to our liking and emotions.

    Lets add in another note to make it a 5 note melody.

    So ,we have the starting B note ( low register) next we move up to D now let this one ring out into the next notes.
    we hit the F note (vibrato) move Up to the G note let THIS one ring out then hit our E note.

    You see this allows us to understand what theory is, how it works, how it is used to write real music.
    It is like how we build houses. We build our foundation, then for the next stage (on top what we already built, we add in our wooden beams then sheet-rock each level gets more and more detail filling in the gaps.
    Music theory and making JAZZ ( and most other genres) work the same way.


    Lets add in another note to make it a 6 note melody.
    remember this whole time our Theory has been the same thing identically whether 2 notes or up to 5 we have

    G7(GBDF, Cmaj7(CEGB


    Now lets add in 6 notes.

    we have the starting B note ( low register) next we move up to D now let this one ring out into the next notes.
    we hit the F note , move Up to the G note, then play a upper C note. let THIS one ring out, then hit our E note.

    We now have 6 note melody low B up to D up to F up to G way up to C down to E




    lets make it 7 note melody.

    low B up to D up to F up to G way up to C down to B down to E




    lets make it a 8 note melody.

    low B up to D up to F up to G way up to C down to B down to E down to C



    lets make it a 9 note melody.

    low B up to D up to F up to G way up to C down to B down to E down to C up to G



    lets make it a 10 note melody.

    low B up to D# down to D up to F up to G way up to C down to B down to E down to C up to G




    lets make it a 11 note melody.

    low B up to D# down to D up to F up to G way up to C down to B down to E down to C up to G# down to G.




    lets make it a 12 note melody.

    low B up to D# down to D up to F up to G way up to C down to B down to E down to C up to G# down to G down to E






    So now instead of adding more notes practice make these 12 notes last for different amounts of time some fast some slow and make 10 variations of the melody doing this :D


    more to come!.........................
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
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  11. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    MMj thank you...
     
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  12. zorgbop

    zorgbop Noisemaker

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    @MMJ2017" I think what it is, you have your ears turned pretty good, not a strong theory basis, but your playing is probably very good"
    LOL !
    :rofl:I was rated best in harmony 4 at berklee ! Than Later in France i was teaching harmony in a jazz school !
    You are a funny guy you !
    That is why i know instantly that you do not know your shit No one talks so much about theory for to say so little .
    You are a fake ! :rofl:

    @sir jack spratsky that has a desire to learn , go and check out those people , they talk about music in a way that is clear concise and useful nothing to do with the meanlingless loggorhea that we deal with here on you tube :

    Rick Beato
    Aimee Nolte
    Jazzduets (This guy is great some much deep understanding of music and gifted to transmit it with great examples opposite of the BS here)
    Jeff schneider
    Adam Neely
    Kent Hewitt
    Lot2learn
    Matt Otto
    Serious people for a change ....

    @MMJ2017 Man let's hear YOU ?!? (if i was writing a pedantic exposé on "pragmatic jazz theory " i should be able to demonstrate my skills !)
    How do YOU sound ??? Wharf ! LOL in advance LOL :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
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  13. zorgbop

    zorgbop Noisemaker

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    End of the game folks !
    I gave you a list of people that could help the one who is interested about the theoratical apect of music , because the stuff
    that this @MMJ2017 is toxic in a way that it is purely meaningless and unuseful theoric stuff .A lot of explanations to say nothing .
    Just compare if you are honest about your craft .
    MMJ2017 you are a sick mind ...
     
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  14. spyfx

    spyfx Guest

    Stop,we don't need your help :yes:

    A lot of people went to Berklee so ?

    so fucking what /?
    Can you even hear yourself & your attitude ?
    Go plant a tree or something
    The joke is on you :bow:
    Nope in order to hear music,you need to be more humble :yes:

    You are being such a shame for the great country of France & i hope the kids you teached,change a teacher asap :yes:

    You don't make a sound either,just a noiseless noise :bow:

    MMJ2017 can express himself ,as you can ,as me can ,in any way we want,Andrew said we are all equal,so let MMJ2017 express himself & write about theory...
    In the future,new members of this site might find all of his writings & everything that he done under the education forum useful :wink: & inspiring :bow:

    The "GAME" will end when WE ALL SAY IT WILL END, NOT you :bow:
     
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  15. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    I agree 100 Percent these people are fantastic!




     
  16. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    I don't get your intent fine sir, you recommend some amazing people to check out which is wonderful, but then you go into bizarre insulting just for the sake of name calling and insulting because you never say anything specific about what you have a problem with its really bizarre, I guess thank you for the valuable portion of your comments where you talking about something specific enough to make sense out of, ( saying hey check out these cool people) that part at least makes sense, I hope you feel better whatever is happening with you fine sir.
     
  17. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Here are multiple instances of Rick Beato a person you yourself recommended.

    Saying the same thing I have been which you say is pointless theory stuff, and then call me bunch of names,

    and go on and on and on about how you had the biggest pecker in middle school gym class.







    and go on and on and on about how you had the biggest pecker in middle school gym class.


     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  18. dragonhill

    dragonhill Guest

    @MMJ2017 Thanks for turning me onto Rick Beato months ago. His recent breakdown of popular songs are very insightful.
     
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  19. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    just a quick note MMJ the seventh of Dmin7 is C
     
  20. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    zorgbop ... can i ask you please...what do u find so threatening about MMJ sharing? i can watch rick beato all day...and i can tell he is wonderful and very learned, however, if i were a trained musician i would find rick an incredible resource, however i really only absorb a few pieces of his share.... MMJ has a knack fror breaking it down to comprehensible chunks. im an old guy who could play your ass off on a drumkit...but who is now trying to compose and create music digitally with midi and my mind..... MMJ insights open many doors for someone like me and i will be forever grateful to him/her ... music is not a sport...for me it is a sacred art form...we are not competing like in a battle of the bands from 1971.....we are trying to bring into life a sound that has never been heard b4.... a revealation of sonic beauty........the more solid the structure the more beautiful the decoration in my experience...... i mean this in the most friendly way ...why not start a thread for serious experienced musicians who have mastered an instrument as you have it seems....... the best
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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