Here's the thing: I haven't bought the XF yet. We're in the middle of opening up and I haven't contacted the guy yet. I've been getting second thoughts during the last three months about whether I should get the XF or shell out an extra ~600€ for a Montage. (both 61 keys only)

I had the chance to sit down and actually play a Montage and I was extremely frustrated. Everything sounded REALLY good in terms of the actual sample quality but the tuning on it was extremely treble-focused. I played around with the EQ but I couldn't fix it. Everything sounded way too bright, almost artificially so but messing with the EQ did more harm than good. Is it just me? Can the Montage/MODX owners here relate? If so have you been able to fix it?
And to the people who have both an XS/XF/MOX/MOXF and Montage/MODX was it worth upgrading based solely on the quality of the samples/instruments (primarily acoustic ones) themselves? I know the Montage has *several* times the sample ROM *size* of the XF but does that actually translate to better sounding instruments? It's really hard to tell without having them side by side and without tuning down that artificial brightness.

Nothing really turns me off about the XF save for maybe the sample number limitation on the flash boards. On the other hand, the Montage's UI seems poorly designed and needlessly convoluted on top of feeling like it constantly lag behinds, especially with that awful touchscreen. It just feels unresponsive as hell. The lack of a proper sequencer also sucks. I mainly sequence stuff in a DAW but having a sequencer there for when I don't feel like having my laptop around would be *very* nice. And I couldn't care less about FM so that's not really a selling point to me. In terms of expandability I also prefer the XF despite the sample number limitation, at least you can have 4GB of flash memory instead of the 1.75 on the Montage. The Montage has some really good 3rd party libraries but most of the ones I'm interested in are available on the XF too.

 

If you don't care for the synthesis engine or the sound bending features of the Montage and you want the sequencer save your money and get the Motif.

Yamaha synths are always a little bright and never sound right solo, they do mix easier with other sounds though.

 

The artificial brightness is something inherent to the Montage, the Motifs don't sound anywhere near as "bad" imho. I'd happily shell out the cash for a Montage if it's something that can be resolved. I've played with it for around two hours but I wasn't able to EQ it to my taste.

 

THB I only thought their pianos were a bit too bright, the rest didn't seem out of normal for me. You might be able to tame them with an external EQ but if you've been messing with it for hours Yamaha master EQ isn't doing it then just get what you like. More money doesn't always mean better, specifically if you are not interested in what the up charge covers. Life is too short to always to try to make stuff fit in when it doesn't want to.

Last year when I was looking at the Montage was pretty excited about it then though I passed on the Montage and went for a Fantom instead for a sequencer and mostly the more complex synth engines. I also thought the Logix plugin would be cool and it seemed like it would simplify somethings, it didn't, it sucks.

 

If you compare stuff like strings, brass and winds they're way brighter on the Montage (although it's hard to find a direct comparison). It's a shame since the instruments are built WAY more competently than your average high-end Kontakt library. The actual samples are really good, it's the tuning that ruins them imho. I did play with it for two hours but I spent maybe just half an hour on the EQ and I really couldn't get it right. If I had a Montage I'd probably dedicate an entire day to fixing the tuning but nobody's gonna let me return it if I end up not liking it. It's not really about the money in this case. I really wish I could have them side-by-side but I can't.

Does Roland have a VST for the Fantom? I wouldn't be surprised if it sucks, Roland doesn't seem to care about their VSTs, only their shit and overpriced ""cloud"" service.

 

Are you locked on Yamaha or would you consider a different brand?
If so, you might want to check what Korg, Roland and Kurzweil have in the same Montage price range.

 

They have a logic/mainstage integration service that runs a plugin controller but it sucks. I don't remember seeing a VST but if they had one it probably wouldn't work either. Yhea they don't really give a shit.

I doubt they are going to even update it so when get a new Mac it wont work anymore. None of the Japanese big 3 really care about DAW control. Maybe when MIDI2 comes out it will all be baked in.

Honestly, these keyboards are holding their value, you might loose 200 bucks if you can't get it the way you want but that is about it. Try some of the bigger online stores if you have to, they usually let your return stuff if you are not happy with it and don't really ask questions.

 

Yeah, I'm locked on Yamaha now. I've been a Korg shill for ages but I don't like their acoustic instruments anymore and the Kronos (and its various repackages) have some of the worst and laggiest UIs I've tried. Before setting my eyes on the Motif XF I spent a good half year searching and the XF is the best choice for me IMHO. And I'm not gonna give Roland a single cent just to have the same old JV/XV samples, I already have a JV-1080 (plus the supernatural engine is a joke)

 

I don't know if Korg has DAW control plugins but Yamaha had their XF/MOXF editor/controller and it looked pretty good. No idea if they've updated it though, I'd hope so.

Honestly, buying one then selling it isn't worth it. I'd lose way too much money with the shipping alone (plus all the hassle of shipping it and finding a buyer who doesn't want to haggle at the last minute)

The only decent music store in town (the one where I tried the Montage) closed last month and the only other one doesn't have a Montage in stock, let alone on display

 

Anyone?

 

That's unfortunately a question only you can answer as there are many factors involved.

- Did you smile at any point while playing the Montage or the XF? Did you "lose yourself"? Don't underestimate that sign, pay attention to it.
- Did you like the keybed?

The XF is wonderful and i kinda agree that the Montage sounds are more polished and have that obnoxious "shimmer" compared to the Motif series. So you got good ears and you're not wrong there.

Reading your OP, it seems you're annoyed with the Montage. So you sure you want to shell that money on something that you're going to be complaining about every time you play? If it was me: Heck no.

My only concern for you with the XF choice is whether it's still supported by Yamaha with software updates or not.

Curve ball: Have you also looked at the Kronos?

 

Sorry for the absolute mess of a post.

I haven't had the chance to play the XF itself, only a MOXF but that was back in November. But yeah, I did smile and lose myself with it. Truth be told, the same happened with the Montage but to a far lesser extent since I kept noticing that shimmer/artificial brightness. I'm somewhat treble sensitive (can't stand DT770s and DT990s physically hurt my ears) so I kept noticing it on every upper mid-lower treble instrument. It's a shame cause I really like the samples themselves and I bet it'd sound even better if I could get rid of that shimmer. Keybed-wise I found the MOXF to be a bit on the cheaper side while the Montage was a lot better (but I still prefer my Korg M1's keybed)

Yeah, I wouldn't want to either. But at the same I'd be more than willing to put up with the lack of a sequencer, the abysmal UI (seriously it's SO bad) and the lack of expandability if I had a clear answer about EQing it or somehow getting rid of the shimmer. I'm not even 1/100th of a sound engineer and when I tried to EQ the Montage I kind of just made everything sound "dead" and lose its punch without necessarily tuning down that shimmer. I was hoping to get an answer from someone who owns one and hear about how they were able to fix it.

I don't think they've updated the XF in a while and the only real limitation is how many samples/waveforms you can have on a single flash memory board. Like, the actual number and not the size itself. It seems like they removed the limitation for the Tyros 4 or 5 but not the Motif XF. It's a bummer but I don't think it'd affect me too much.

I've looked at the Kronos and its various little brothers and I'm honestly not impressed. It's a shame since I'm a huge Korg fan but the UI is even worse than the Montage's in terms of responsiveness and design. It's like half-way between a mobile app and someone's first GTK project. And besides, Korg's acoustic instruments don't really attract me anymore, the adoration I had for the Korg sound has been waning since the Motif ES and I honestly think they haven't made anything revolutionary since the Triton. I did find a blog where some guy upgraded the Kronos from an old Atom (or whatever it was) to a Skylake i3 and that's honestly the coolest fucking thing but I don't trust myself with doing the same. Just about the only thing that attracts me is the CX-3 engine but I could always get a real CX-3 and pretend I'm Motoi Sakuraba. Also, the Kronos is EXPENSIVE. EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE. Those things never go down in value. You can get an old non-X, first gen 61-keys Kronos for around 1500€ and the X/2 cost about the same as a Montage 6 at around 2000 to 2200. That's a lot of money for something I don't even like the sound of. (I DO love how the Montage sounds, I just wish I could tone down that artificial brightness)

For the record, the XF I'm gonna buy is a 61-key white model that's been barely used and includes the 40th anniversary pack with a 1gb module and it clocks in at 1400€ (was 1300 but I can't go get it myself and shipping it would mean getting it with at least two sledgehammer dents in it so the owner will have to drive all the way here)

I could use the money I'd save on the Montage to hunt down that elusive firewire card for the XF and maybe even buy a library or two. (Haven't found many on the sister site and they're only for the XS)

It's like buying an exotic car with a dozen minor faults and a high-pitched engine whine. You don't mind the minor faults and the engine itself is fine, it's just that you'd still want to fix it just to avoid going crazy from that whining noise. Except few people have the same car and you don't even know if it's fixable.


Edit: went back and listened to some Kronos demos and comparisons vs Montage and I still prefer the Montage's sound, even if a lot of the demos were kinda hit and miss (cough muzykujkropkacom cough). Best way I can describe the Kronos is that it feels like a very incoherent mix and match of Kontakt libraries of varying quality with the occasional high point like some of the saxes (still not as good as Yamaha's but pretty good nonetheless imho) and strings (some of the strings on the Kronos are really nice, they have a lot more low end but for some reason the legato sounds worse to me). I noticed that quite a few samples sounded IDENTICAL on both minus some effects and EQing. Either they recorded the same exact model of instruments or Yamaha still owns Korg after all.. (I'm kidding) If I could take a Kronos and upgrade it internally, redesign the OS to make it resemble the XF/Tyros OS and get rid of the entire sound library and replace it with the XF/Montage one I'd never have to buy another workstation ever again. Oh and another thing I noticed about the Montage when I was listening to Kronos VS Montage comparisons is that on top of the extra shimmer/brightness there's quite a lot of extra reverb too. It's not as bad as Roland's stuff but that's a lotta reverb. It's probably why some of the strings sounded better on the Kronos, even on the top end. Quite a few of the Montage's strings sounded like they lacked in terms of high end too and I haven't noticed that with the Motif strings.

Since I'm so fixated on acoustic sounds I'd love to get a Tyros 5 or Genos but that's way, way too much money for me right now (~2700€ for either right now, not including shipping or a trip to go get 'em) and I'd use it more for the quality of the samples than for the arranger features, even if those would probably help me create something that isn't total garbage. (despite that I'm STILL gonna get a Tyros 2, I fell in love with one as a kid and nothing will stop me from getting one once I save up for it after the Motif/Montage)

 

Last edited: May 24, 2021

I think I just got my answer.

I asked the guy a few questions and I'm waiting for a reply but if the Montage still sounds cold and bright on the digital outputs does that mean the waveforms got factory EQ'd before they got shoved into the keyboard? If the frequencies aren't there even when EQ'd then it's just not fixable. That's a huge deal-breaker.

 

Last edited: May 27, 2021

From what is posted above it doesn't have anything to do with the waveforms, it is the actual output stage before conversion that is adding that coloration or reproducing the PCM data more accurately and sounding the worse off for it.

It can't be the "convertors" because there is no D/A stage on the the digital outputs. It is just the way Yamaha built the summing, if you want to explore if it is the PCM data and if or which of they keyboards is coloring the sound, or whatever is going on, you will have to have a comparison between raw PCM sample and a recording from the digital output. If they null, the keyboard is accurate to the sample it is given. If both keyboard null between a given sample and it's recording, then it's just confirmation bias.

 

Last edited: May 29, 2021

+1.
Been looking at the Montage for a while, the need for EQ wouldn't have been such a great deal for me, even if only an external EQ would really work, but comparing a few sounds that were most important to me made me choose the Kurzweil (a Forte). The Kurz doesn't even sound too 'spectacular' but the sounds just work well in a song. Adding the synthesis, the sequencing features and the panel layout, the whole package looked like the better choice.
That's not to say it's the case for everyone! UI and sounds are very much a personal choice, and today's keyboards like the Nord Stage, Montage, Kronos and Kurzweils are all excellent instruments, just with different flavors and different advantages for certain workflows.

 

Hold on, how can it reproduce the data more accurately if those frequencies are missing altogether? And yeah, doing that would confirm it but I'm not sure if you can extract the raw PCM data from either.

What sounds did you like on the Forte? Some of the acoustic pianos and strings are pretty alright on that but everything else sounds really weak and "outdated" to me.

 

Going by the post you referenced as an image, it sounds to me like the same bank sound different on a MOXF and a Montage if these are external paid for banks then the PCM data on the MOXF and Montage is the same but sounds different. If the guy was just talking about custom splits and pointer banks then I am in error. If if is the same PCM data and it sounds different from the digital outs, it has nothing to do with the convertors as there is no DA stage. The only possible culprit is the decompression algo for the packed XF* or the digital summing bus, which shouldn't color anything but who knows what is actually on it.

You can load your own PCM data, in which case you have the raw wav and the patches and banks in the user section from USB. I am not sure this will actually work for you because you don't actually own the keyboard, but it might if the store you go to will allow you to load an external bank and record what comes back out.

I have a friend who comes over to sample my older keyboards to his Yamaha's he wont user any other brand as a live performance keyboard. I don't know why, I've tried to talk him into buying other brands but I guess keyboards are like cigarettes and pick-up trucks some people have got their brand and nothing else will do. He uses something called sample robot and it makes the XF7 and XF8 files for him. It's actually pretty cool he's samples some of my old keyboards that have midi by just pushing a button and it takes care of the midi and sampling and bank packing with very few edits.

I don't know if that will work for you, but from what I think I understood of.. "downloaded all my XF patches into the Montage..." if these are custom banks that are 100% the same on both keyboards and sound different the problem is much more complex than the patches themselves.

 

Oh yeah, I didn't consider external banks/samples at all. I just assumed he was talking about the voices and performance he built himself using the waveforms in ROM (which as far as I know CAN be loaded into the Montage. Plus Yamaha seems to have ported all the preset voices and performances from the XF to the Montage)

Sadly that store closed down and the only other store in town doesn't sell synthesizers.

I've looked up sample robot and it's pretty cool, I would love something like that for the XF. They only support the Montage but I sent them an email asking about XF support in the future. Probably a futile effort but you never know.

I'm assuming that if the banks are 100% the same on both keyboard but the outputs sound different then it's something in either keyboard that's coloring the sound for better or for worse and that it can't really be dealt with.

I kind of wanted the Montage to be "fixable" (again, I loved the quality of the samples) but it sounds like that's just the way it's supposed to be. I've contacted the XF guy and we'll talk about delivery soon. I'm sure the XF will give me 1/100th of the headaches the Montage would give me with the UI and tuning problems.

I did find one thing I don't like about the XF: the screen. It's an extremely minor thing but I noticed that the screen slowly "fades" to the next UI panel. Almost as if it's some sort of weird video transition. It doesn't really bother me but it's kinda funny since the UI seems to update almost instantly after pressing a button but the screen has to "catch up".

 

Good news: I got it. It's fucking gorgeous. I'm ecstatic.

Bad news: I haven't tried it back cause I'm too tired to lift up my M1 off of the good stand and idk if the stand can handle another half kg.