Most theory threads are usually closed at the end, because it ends in war and fights and insults, and respected mods have no choice but to close it. Really why?

I feel that the root cause of all these problems lies in the fact that the application of theory doesn't happen much in practice.

At present, all the laws regarding the protection of the environment and the establishment of peace, etc. are enacted in the United Nations, but they run into problems when they are implemented. Because enforcing laws is much more complicated than setting them.

There is a similar problem in the world of music. Music theory is like UN laws, but in practice they're not widely used, and everyone does his/her job and no one respects the theory. In many cases, there is talk of breaking the rules of music, while many people themselves don't know the rules of music.

In my opinion, there are several reasons for not using music theory, and that is that today's music doesn't allow the use of theory. Today's music is so simple that there is no need to use theory in it.

Unfortunately, many people in the world of music today don't seek learning and understanding. The only thing that satisfies them is making a music album in 1 week.

A music album that is made in a week, it is clear that it has not used many principles of music and its purpose is only to attract the attention of listeners and bosses.

As you can see, there are many reasons not to use theory. Another major reason is the lack of modern genres in which music theory can be used. Because as soon as music theory is used, music loses its simplicity and many people won't listen to it because they love simple music.

What can really be done about these problems? What are your solutions?

 

Solution number 1 - ignore ridiculous posts that try to compare music theory to UN laws.
Solution number 2 - ignore posts that invent pretentious problems where there are none.
Solution number 3 - ignore whoever wrote the ridiculous 'attention seeking' post.

Enough said.

 

What was that name again? I believe it was Foster.

 

I made that mistaken guess too. No, this is much scarier - this is the resurrected MMJ - hide under your duvets immediately.
---
EDIT:
Help - this roulette wheel is bankrupting me.
First (in another thread) I gambled that @Fully Operational and @Freetobestolen were Foster + Anti-Foster
Then it became obvious that @Freetobestolen is the resurrected MMJ
and @Fully Operational looked suspiciously like "MMJ's 2nd account lackey".
Now, as this thread progresses I'm back to thinking @Fully Operational is either Foster or MMJ impersonating Foster.
I'm running out of chips here - not sure which way to bet next.

Aah - hang on - go for the safe bet - they're all just disruptive TROLLS.

 

Last edited: Jan 27, 2021

First, understanding that (google):

theory
is
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
"Darwin's theory of evolution"

If I say "fuck you, Darwin. I have my own theory" or "fuck you, Schoenberg, that twelve-tone serialism is BS", it's obvious that:

Theory CAN NOT BE "USED". It's an attempt to explain something (if you have to much time at hand) that already exists. And even then you have to specify whose theory are you referring to.

So first there is a guy who makes music. And then there is the theoretician, who can't.. but wants to be somehow involved, lol

 

I am grateful I am only here for a few more days.
The term Music theory is interesting as is the application of the word "Modern".
Modern for western people? Indian people? Arabic people? Jazz musicians? Classical musicians?
Too many areas to cover.

If you research modern Indian music training, in some areas of Northern and Southern India, they have to know all of the Ragas and music theory before they are allowed to touch the instrument - some, not all. Then you have microtonal theory, non-linear theory, free improvisation theory with or without structures... too many to list...

While certainly for some styles and genres you would be correct it is incorrect for every style in every culture. We have to take into account that while there certainly are a lot of Western (European-based) people on the planet, it is egotistical to think our modern music is the only modern music on a planet with 7.8 billion people in it. Sure, Western music may be the most prevalent on radios and the net and youtube globally, but it is certainly not the only modern music.
There are people developing their own native music into new things. Is that not a modern approach? Of course it is they are trying to create something new, here and now which is part of the 'modern' definition.

Modern jazz, modern classical and many other styles and genres and sub-genres within are perpetually experimenting. I am not saying they've all found something miraculous at all, I am saying they have not given up trying to find something new and exciting. Discounting anything as having no use rarely breeds a good result.

 

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Hi,

With all due respect I think you are extremely misinformed.

This quote simply does not make sense. The definition of Music Theory - "Music theory is the study of the practices and possibilities of music".

Just because modern music is "simple" does not mean that analysis and thought do not go into it, I've actually found the contrary to be true. As someone who has spent maybe too much time trying to learn about composition and theory, I've come to realise that this kind of shrugging off of theory is usually done by somebody who has not yet found or understood the value of theory. I have spent the last 5 years reading countless books on composition, orchestration, voicings, arrangement, voice leading and plain old simple theory books.

I think that your understanding of why someone WOULD learn theory is where this problem begins.

Theory does not force you to DO or not DO anything. What it actually does it educates you as to HOW songs work. Now lets say there is a song that you like, that is in your words "simple". There is almost always A LOT to be learnt from that song. Analysing this song and understanding which chord progression it is using, which mode of the Major Scale it is written in, how the song voices those chords, what is the melody and why does the melody work so well over those chords specifically. This may sound like arbitrary details but mastery of these concepts will take your music to the next level. I assure you, looking deep into the details will allow you to notice things that you previously did not notice when just listening to the song.

The important part of this is that when you finish analysing the song, you now have a REAL LIFE EXAMPLE of a successful piece of music and YOU KNOW the inner workings of how it was put together.

Now lets say you repeat this process every day for a month, analysing only music that YOU REALLY LIKE. What happens is you get to the point where you have seen MOST chord progressions and you are able to recognise them by ear because you go "oh yeah that's the progression from that song".

After a few months you literally will get to the point where you have seen just about EVERY diatonic chord progression in 1 key. Also you have seen how "simple" melodies are written over these progressions hundreds of times.

The end result of this is when you sit down to make your own music you know what ALL THE CHORDAL POSSIBILIITES are. This inevitably leads to you making significantly better decisions - and these decisions are often led by your EAR. So it doesn't feel like you are using music theory in that moment, but the hours you put into theory allow you to make much better decisions, which in turn ends up making your music much, much better.

There are no laws. This is a huge misconception. You are free to make the music you like - only you do so from a more informed place which almost always results in a significantly higher quality product.

This thread is called "Not getting good results from music theory threads"

You are not going to even scratch the surface of theory from a reading a thread. If you want to really know the value of theory, read
Hal Leonard Harmony & Theory - Part 1: Diatonic
This book is a perfect starting point and explains Theory in chronological order.


Conclusion-

Until you go deep deep deep into this topic, try not to pass judgement on its relevance. It seems that you have many fundamental misconceptions about Theory and the point of learning it.

I spent my first 2 years producing music just clicking in midi in FL Studio and programming trap drums over it, I had no theory understanding and didn't play piano, didn't understand composition and I had a very similar mindset to the one you are displaying in this post.
As a result the music I created in those years was honestly dreadful and I didn't even know that it was dreadful.

Some people are just musically talented and can get by from following their ear. I am not that person. In-fact 99.9% of us are also not that person so if we want to get to a high level we have to try and learn.

OP please feel free to pm me with any questions. I would like to help you in your Music Theory journey as it can be difficult when trying to learn alone - it was for me.

 

This is quite ambiguous. I am not giving you a hard time, I am saying this because there is too much documented evidence to the contrary.
A great deal of fabulous music in jazz history by Charlie Parker, John Coltrane and even recently with musicians for example: Christian McBride, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea and others are done in a week, and in some cases in as little as one day. They may possibly have spent many months writing it, but they recorded it in quick time.
There is another reason too. The best studios in the world are really fricking expensive!!

@Freetobestolen - There are some great documentaries about the making of LP's that might explain why some people may have adopted that same day/same week recording mentality. While it is no longer relevant today with every man and his dog having a DAW at home, in the 1920s post Edison's initial invention in 1877, they had to create the Vinyl LP as they recorded it initially. If you watch a recent movie 'Ma Rainey's Black Bottom' - they actually represent that in a recording studio scene. Many jazz musician's still get in and out of a studio as fast as they can to capture the live not-too-rehearsed energy as a main criteria.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2021

Music theory is only the road map. The majority of creative and successful people actually have no education in music.
Notes and scales without imagination and playfulness/experimentation yield poor results.

 

I'd agree with most of that other than the majority. Many, definitely. There are too many creative and successful people who are in other styles other than popular music who own mansions and Bentleys.

 

Sigh, I also miss the era where, even on dark brothels on Austria, the harlots where discussing about the uses of Locrian modes. The simplicity of the now its too mundane. Everything is a F, sure there are some intrincated, technologycally researched, and intellectual appealing Fs around that even clasical music theory cannot grasp to describe them. But it´s like they are trying to F the music over and over again. It is dissgusting.

 

Foster, once upon a time you were uneducated in music theory; now, when you now what is going on, why don't you write some music? There is no rule that forbids you from writing complex, structural music using "popular" music elements.
Write a disco symphony, reggae concert, hip-hop fugue, EDM sonata, jazz aria or whatever you like and stop spamming the forum.

 

Horrible thread.
Not only are you asking a completely loaded question, you're also just straight up saying things that aren't true, like:

This is completely not true. First of all, music theory is just a system to describe musical concepts. Secondly, everything done in music can be described with music theory, and most of the music that you call simple is taking advantage of very tried and true applications of music theory like "I–V–vi–IV sounds pleasing". How do you think the big players in the music industry consistently manage to produce very catchy music? By applying their knowledge of harmony and melody. Music theory isn't widely used in practice? Give me a break.

 

I agree with most of what you've said. I have recordings of different drummers where you look at how they played it varied... as an opener that's ambiguous but as an explanation, one drummer played a fabulous backbeat in time with the click. You can call it musical theory, but basically every snare hit was evenly in the same place, not even a quarter of a second after the click. Mathematically in music terms you could probably explain it as he was 1/256th of a beat evenly after the beat, but that's where he felt it. I met one academic who tried to say there was no such thing as 'feel' either. I agree that we can explain most things theoretically but you have to ask where the musicality ends and the mathematics of it begin. As for necessity no argument if a musician wishes to evolve.

In 'Chasing the Trane' about John Coltrane, a PhD brought a transcription of his solo into a gig from Blue Trane. He thanked her and was impressed. She then asked him to play it. He said "I can't, I felt it and did not think about it at the time".

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2021

I'm probably repeating some of the above but in general, most of your arguments don't make any sense at all.
Music whether classical or modern is based on music theory (the exception to the rule might be some really experimental music). The amount of theory used in a piece can differ.
Claiming that modern-day music doesn't allow music theory to be used makes it clear to me that you lack the knowledge yourself.

Yes, when "the nerds" get involved, a topic about theory might get heated. Most of the time that has nothing to do with the topic but more with egos that are too big to admit that the other is right.

So please never post a post like this again. People get a very strange picture of you while you might be as likable as any other of us.
If you want to address an issue then maybe first ask whether any other people feel the same about it too. When the answer is yes then maybe formulate an opinion that we can discuss. But be warned: stay open-minded cause chances are small that you get from such a topic what you aspect to get.

Have a nice day.
Eddy

 

All copyright waived - feel free to repost as often as your medications require.
This thread currently at about row 2 - would appear to be following the Trolling 101 manual to the letter.

 

It's called 3 chords and the truth... sincerity, depth. My favorite music has always been simple with deep messages.

 

Ban Foster

 

fTRoLLster alert?

 

@Fully Operational
You mean Full of sssssshhhhh...

Cheers