Unfortunately, DAWs based guys do not take serious this concept and their variations are usually limited to the notes on the horizontal axis stuck to the beats. Are you one of those guys? I think this problem arise from this fact that most DAWs' lovers do not spend time with their instruments and the only thing they know is 4/4. I think Rhythm is a very important matter that without considering it, you would not be a successful producer. I usually see complex rhythm changing in classical and orchestral musics not nowadays ones and I think the reason is that the rhythm is usually dealt better with real instruments not mouse clicks on the piano roll.

Meter, time signature, tempo changing all affect on creating rhythm. Chord, riff, melody, bass, drums all can be done rhythmically or steadily.

Please help us to overcome this problem.
Thanks so much!

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2016

Daw based guys? what do you record your instrument into? Are you talking about note placement or time signatures here? Are you trying to fire people up with this post lol?

 

In Hip-Hop you can't have no variation in your rythm, you can't just stick to plain 4/4...But you can get away from the 4/4 in many ways : double time, half time, triplets....A lot of prods include tempo changes too.
But I never hear any pro or semi-pro prod without any variation either in the time-signature, rythm, whatever, it just doesn't happen anymore nowadays, in fact it's rather the opposite : lack of knowledge in music theory leads a lot of producers to play with one note or two (with modulation of sound all over the place) and never ever bring any variation in the melody, or the harmony (if there is any)...They're very talented with the rythm, because you can learn that part without going too much into theory, for the rest it can get very weak.

 

There is a tutorial called Escape the 8 Bar by Udemy

https://www.udemy.com/electronic-music-arrangement-escape-the-8-bar-loop/

 

Last edited: Jan 16, 2016

I do. All the time. Granted it's to myself mostly nowadays.

But, It's the basis of my strive towards individuality. Especially on my hip-hop tracks. Super-especially if I'm forced, financially of course, to sequence my drums instead of playing them live on rock, funk, type tracks.

i do variations in time signature all the time in hip hop, and I've heard it bunch too. You're just not listen to the right "pro or semi-pro" rap artist that have an ear for rapping on good beats.

i can name at least 6 artist off the top of my head that have rapped to 6/8 beats om the past including myself. But they didn't produce their own tracks, i have to, for now.

Obie Trice
Busta Rhymes
Talib Kwali
Immortal Technique - makes his beats mostly
Tech Nine
Eminem
Hopsin - makes his beats mostly
Royce da 5 9

I can't think of all the individual tracks off the top of my head though.

In spite of these facts though, i have noticed stuff on radio is devoid of technical, musical, proficiency for the most part. Compared to the 20's thru the 40's (big band, swing, jazz type stuff), or the 50's thru the 70's(doo wop, classic rock, funk, birth of progressive metal).

Easy explanation. not as much technology to do half the work with samplers and such and DAWs and midi nowadays no wonder. Back then you HAD to play an instrument to make music. Likewise, you HAD to learn to read music and it's theorems to communicate most efficiently with other musicians.

 

I'm saying exactly what you wrote my friend you read me too fast...You quote me, so I will quote myself again " But I never hear any pro or semi-pro prod WITHOUT any variation either in the time-signature, rythm, whatever, it just doesn't happen anymore nowadays "

 

Linking to that website is prohibited here you should remove it

 

I don't have an idea what you mean by DAW-based guys.
As for me, I do multiple changes in tempo and time signature throughout the song, as well as leaps from one key to another. Why that wouldn't be done today?

@audiowolf - I was faster to remove it, before you reported it . Thanks anyway

 

I wrote an essay at university on this matter, starting with the introduction of the invention of the metronome in the 1815, evolving with the invention of the microchip, etc etc (making us more "robotic" with these tools). Yes, many "producers" and musicians are somewhat slaves to the grid...but there are those who are not.

If you want to stand out today, you fluctuate(tempo)/offset/flam/drag/stress/shuffle/swing your music, aswell as use different time signatures. Therein is the secret to "groove", unpredictability, originality, etc.

Edit: Funny that you wrote "no body" in the title, as the body (and brain) has alot to do with rhythm.

 

Last edited: Jan 16, 2016

Overgeneralisation. Type casting "all daw based guys" makes no sense.

More likely, you fail to understand that most of the "daw based" orchestral compositions (since you talked about classical compositions vs today's practice) aim at a certain target group. Game osts and music for media. As such it is expected to be more rhythmically stable because if they were not, if they were demanding the listener's full attention, they would have failed their role.

Ofcourse there are exceptions, and notable ones, but my point is, if you expect (rather demand, in your case) the complexity in a composition for a video game or a commercial to be that of a classical piece, then you're in the wrong, not "daw based guys".

 

I play drums, percussion, some bass guitar. People pay me to play---jazz, rock, country, shows tunes, whatever. I must know a little about rhythm. (my avatar is named from a Stewart Copeland solo album. As a drummer, funky rock and jazz, and Latin stuff is where it's at for me) I have two DAWs, a PC that is designed for audio work-----and thousands of dollars worth of mics, cables, PA gear (analog mixer, digital assist mixer), tube pre-amp, etc,. Seems like a somewhat false premise/statement to me. All sorts different types of audio people are here, for different reasons, and different methods. I learn a lot here, and try to keep an open mind, which is hard for a grumpy old fart. Check out the thread I started on the prohibitive cost of tape a while back.

 

Last edited: Jan 16, 2016

Thanks for bringing this up – and also for suggesting that one not let software dictate composition. A couple recent threads, concering harmony and melody, respectively, have either expressed or implied that software be the recourse, for someone new to music-making, in determining the "right" chords for or the "right" note in in a melody. I am normally a helpful, thoughtful, generous person, but if someone's too lazy to gain understanding and appreciation of musical elements and forms (and wonder if there's some software or feature thereof) to provide fundamental or stylistic skills in composition, I'd like to throw their computer off the roof of a tall building and hand 'em a toy piano in exchange.

When I was new to the DAW, one of my first inquiries into it was to find how to change the time signature and the tempo of a project along the timeline.

Fred Wesley, James Brown's longtime trombonist, said in an interview that some of Brown's bridges and other odd-metered parts of his otherwise groove-driven songs were practically impossible to notate; that they practically had to be felt in order to be performed. Stuff like that has to be borne in mind while composing or arranging music in a DAW.

 

Polyrhythmic DAW based J-POP (mostly around the 1:37 mark):

 

On a side note: I also rap and one of my most recent enterprises was to learn how to rhyme on odd time signatures. So far I've had succes using 3/4 , 6/4 , 5/8 , 7/8 and 11 beats. After you get the "gist" of it, it's awesomely fun.

 

As a guy without much knowledge of music theory: These conversations are so lame.

To me it looks like chest thumping, trying to validate yourself by putting a premium on the qualities where you do better than the average guy. Implying that if you don't learn the way other a bunch of people decided music should be done then you're wrong. I say: tell it to the millions of people who listen to simplistic melodies in 4:4 all the time

Not that I advocate shitty pop music... but the standard ego-saver of people who can't capture an audience is to say that while their music isn't as popular, it's more fundamentally sound. And the average listener doesn't know how to appreciate that.

I've said it before: the end game is to entertain the listener, not impress other producers.

 

4/4 can translate and be manipulated to a bunch of different signatures, 3/4, 2/4, 4/8, 6/8 etc.. Imo the rythemic groove of a song is more determined by how you program or record the percussive elements you add to it. Rather then the time signature.

 

indeed, I have a pc full of hip-hop projects with only a 'square' (robo-clicktrack) drumbeat and patterns...
(sorry Rhythmatist, sorry Baxter)

sometimes swinging some ms is alright,
other times I just replay it in the end on pads and then emphasize the volumes manually does the job,
but only as much as the material or genre can handle.
Most of the time I wont go further then 24 bars variations (16-bars+8-Ref)
with old style of hip-hop or pop tracks, a side from the usual fades/mutes/fx, so purely speaking of tracking..

what can I say, I live between Amsterdam Rotterdam and Groningen, we rock less over here...

 

I imagine it would be quite fun to collaborate on one of you odd time signature enterprises in the near future. we could share it with this thread. dare i say, it could very well be grotesquely amazing...