Anyone out there using these?

My monitors broke a few weeks ago. I had them about 13 years, m-audio BX-8's. I know many will shit one these, sure, not the best I guess but I was happy with them until one day I'm listening to music and one decided to die right in front of my eyes (ears?)

Anyway, through trawling of many forums, reddit, gearspace etc, I often hear remarkable things about the Neumanns. Of course, you have to filter the people who have been producing for 3 years and swear their Adam TV7's or Yahama HS's are the best things ever.

My main concern with the Neumanns, and here, please forgive my ignorance:
How reliable is the DSP technology? Does anyone experience glitches, latency, crashing? Anything funky I should be aware of. I've never used such a system before.

I paraphrase here, but from one of the official Neumann videos they claim the aim of the R&D team was to make the DSP even BETTER than analog - and they claim this has been accomplished. This makes me very curios.

I have a pretty small studio space, and Neumann claims these are a suitbale choice for nearfield and smaller sized rooms. I tested some Adam TV8's two weeks ago and sent them back. Not because they sounded bad, I'm just testing out my options. I also have Neumann headphones for a few months, which claims to sounds like a "calibrated Neumann monitor system" so this setup makes quite a lot of sense in terms of complimenting my existing gear.

It's quite a big purchase for me, but I plan to use these for years, so looking out for any concerns or even similar recommendations in the $1000 - $15000 range.

 

I've mixed on Neumann KH 120s for years and love 'em. I mix in a small room. You could buy a used pair and then do DSP via Arc Studio. I use Arc Studio and it works great with the Neumanns. If I ever sell the Neumanns, I can use Arc with anything...

 

Thanks man. So that's another nod for the Neumanns. I also have the option of a 2nd hand pair of the Neumann KH 120 A, of course I'll be missing the more advanced features from the KH II.. I can get these for 750eu -so a considerable amount less. However, the user had them for 7 years, and they look a little dusty and worn. Since my previous monitors just broke I'm a little scared of buying something 7 years old. Might be worth coughing up a bit extra for 30 day grace period and buyer protection. The idea that I can send something back in 30 days if unhappy from some dealerships is a real good thing, I got quite an advantage from this testing headphones in the past.

I'll look into Arc studio. But actually my plan was to order the M1 A mic, set my room up, and return with 30 days :D

The KH80 look impressive to, not bad bass response either. But since I'm doing EDM / trance stuff I think the extra low end might be helpful. I see some debate about whether a sub is needed with the KH 80 / KH 20 but I can't really comprehend why?

 

I've been using KH80s paired with the KH750 sub here for like 4 years or so now. I have them calibrated with the MA-1.

I've also used the 120's a lot too.

So I'd say if you're definitely never ever gonna get the sub, and you're doing EDM, then probably get the 120's.

However, if you can swing it, I'd strongly recommend the 80's + 750 combo --- you get the benefits of both the low end extension of the sub (and the 750 sounds fantastic, esp as it's a closed cabinet) but also the better transients and stereo imaging that the 80's have over the 120's.

Not that the 120's are at all bad in these areas, and tbh if you get the 120's you definitely won't feel like you're missing anything. But if you hear the 80's next to them, in the areas I mentioned, you will hear a difference. The 80's have smaller woofers, and enclosures, so it makes sense that they'd do a wee bit better in this respect.

Especially when they're calibrated with the MA-1 (which works astonishingly well, provided you do the measurements carefully) you won't regret the 120's, but yeah, personally I'd take the 80's + 750 every time. Again, when they're calibrated, the 80's integrate with the sub so well that unless you're literally looking at it, you genuinely can't tell there is a separate sub - it's weird when you set the system up for the first time, bc it literally tricks your brain into thinking those tiny speakers are going all the way down to like 18 hz haha!

To answer your specific question:

The DSP is rock solid - in over 4 years of owning them, I've never had a single glitch/crash/hang/etc. I think they add something like 2ms of latency or something (don't think the exact number has ever been mentioned by Neumann) - it's imperceptible. The latency incurred by me getting up and walking 10 feet away from them while playing a guitar is wayyyyyyy more noticeable.

Funny enough, I still have a pair of original HS80's here. While they may not exactly be the most relaxing speakers to work with, they're really useful tools for making certain things work! I still use them often, alongside my other speakers.

I'd suggest not sending the MA-1 back, because unless you're planning to set up your room once, and then never, ever move anything around in the space, then you're gonna want to calibrate your system again in the future. Even if this room stayed the same - are you planning on working in the same spot in that same room for like, the rest of your life? What if you move/buy a new sofa/decide to rearrange your space? Once you've heard the calibrated system, trust me, you won't want to go back to being without it.

Oh, and budget for some IsoAcoustics stands too, they're worth it - the small ones for the KH80's improve them even more, and genuinely look like they were specially-made for them; and if you get the sub, it's pretty much a necessity.

Ps: The KH80's on their own would be perfectly doable for EDM - especially if you planned to save up to add the sub down the line - provided you're not wanting to crank them up crazy loud - like, I know the specs and graphs look impressive, but until you actually hear them, you genuinely won't believe how much low end they can put out, from such a small package.

 

Last edited: Aug 15, 2024

Seems like all I hear is good things for Neumann. I have also been happy with the Neumann nhd30 headphones so far, this was an upgrade from Beyerdynamics DT 990's that I had for about 5 years. They're great, but they started to sound too bright and almost hurt my hears after long sessions.

Def wont have the money for the sub now, even for the KH 120 I gotta stretch my funds a bit. And that sub is DAYUM pricey. But I think moving up a class hopefully from the realms of the m-audio BX8's lol. About the Yamaha comment - I mean no disrespect to any brand mentioned in particular. I actually have the Yammie HS 7's in my studio back at home, definitely nothing wrong with them, very forward. I also intend to keep those. I just meant that more in the r/edm comments many noob producers who bought their first $300 - $500 monitor thinks they're the best because their latest techno tune whistles the tits. As you move towards r/audio engineering a different, more nuanced picture emerges, and rather than saying which is best, people point out strengths and weaknesses of each.

Let's say I get the KH 80's and can't get the sub down the line, perhaps I regret not having the KH 120's. I could also combine the KH 120s with a sub later -although apparently the crossover if different.
PS my orignal plan was to get either the Adam TV7's or TV8's, but as I read more about the Neumanns I became more curios I'm at the point where I might even have to sell a synth or something to make the purchase.. but I'm starting to think it might be worth it.

PS something I was wondering and couldn't quite find the answer to - it's about the DSP room correction. Does this almost eliminate the need for room treatment? I have already invested in some decent room treatment, but I wondered if I had Neumann I would be more flexible as to where I can place my desk etc. Is the idea that you still treat your room as best as you can, to let the DSP do as little correction possible? I saw a video where they went to some random hotel room and used the M1 A to make some corrections and apparently it was all good. Like, wowzers!

Also, once you make the room adjustment with the M1 A mic, I assume you cannot move anything in the room (or the monitor themselves) because it would then change the effects of the DSP. What if closed my curtains during measurement and then I sometime open them, or someone moved your speaker a centimeter while cleaning for instance -would you need to recalibrate? Maybe sounds like silly questions, but I'm very curios in this :D

 

It's defo not cheap, but for the performance it offers, I'd say it's reasonably priced. But yeah, it's certainly an investment!

It depends what's more important to you - if you need more raw level, and slightly deeper bass (but not by that much in real world terms, then maybe you go for the 120's. The 80's low end drops off gradually - the sound deeper than the specs suggest. But they do sacrifice max level - the limiters will kick in on bass heavy stuff way before your fillings are rattling.

Personally I'd rather sacrifice a bit of loudness for the really pretty special imaging and preciseness the 80's have, but if you're doing like, super heavy bass-dominated music day in/day out, then maybe your priorities are different.

Just remember you can check low end and stuff on headphones, bigger speakers, etc. If I'm doing something super bassy, I actually find my Airpods Pro 2's one of the best real world references.

Starting from a well- or at least half-decently treated room will always be a good thing, but the MA1 can work quite a bit of magic in most spaces, it's really impressive!
I've used it when I've had the system set up in untreated rooms, or when I've been set up asymmetrically, or near a corner, or not in an equilateral triangle. So long as you take your first (main) MA1 measurement from where your head is actually going to be, it'll figure it out. It's not just doing frequency correction, but also time and phase, so it can really deal with some pretty major issues - while it may not eliminate some things entirely, at the bare minimum it'll be able to get almost anything down to the point where it's not gonna be an issue in getting a good mix.

It really depends on how sensitive you are to frequency/imaging shifts. The calibration is pretty precise - Neumann ask you to make sure that when you're moving the mic to the 7 positions it asks you to take readings at, that you do so with a precision of less than +/- 1cm. The measurements leave you with a decently large sweet spot, and you'll probs find yourself making teeny adjustments to the toe-in/out angle for a day or two after you do the calibration anyways (I'm talking like a couple degrees or so).
Quick tip on this btw - I personally prefer the sound when the toe in angle puts me slightly inside my point of the triangle - ie. the straight lines from the speakers point v slightly behind my head at the listening position (like maybe 6-12") I'm not the only kh80 user that's found this.

From my own experience, I'd recommend you set your whole space up to be as representative of a typical working day as you can. Like, ofc if you open curtains and expose a big reflective glass surface, that will have an acoustic effect, but if you're working at typical nearfield distance, the change is very unlikely to be like, horrendously distracting, unless you're literally sitting right beside the window!

It might take you running the calibration a couple of times, as you sorta get the hang of it - it's not complicated, but I found I was even better to tailor the sound to my personal preference as I got more familiar with the process. The MA1 software does let you audition and tweak the eq before it's saved to the speakers, but I don't think I've ever touched the curve - if I've not been entirely happy with the sound, I just ran the whole thing over again - it only takes like 20 mins or so.

Oh, and get a cheap laser pointer off Amazon or something - it makes lining the mic up with tape marks on the floor so much easier!

 

Last edited: Aug 16, 2024

Thanks again for all the info man, it is a big investment but looks like you get quite a lot for the deal. The compact monitor makes a lot of sense to me.
I am still quite interested in those KH 80's they're even smaller and would save me some bucks. Just that low end though, I know they will sound like there is enough bass for general stuff, but how crusical is that last bit of extra low to achieve a rock solid bass. Fyi I am making mostly psy at bpm of 145-150, bass is happening quick and needs to be pretty accurate. It's also that 50 Hz area I really like to hear

Neumann KH 120II
Free field frequency response ±3 dB 44 Hz ... 21 kHz
Neumann KH 80ii
Free field frequency response ±3 dB 57 Hz … 21 kHz

So, it's a 7 Hz difference.. it's really tough to say how much that 7 Hz will make a difference, especially since I've never used these monitors, or anything in this league tbh. Will give the KH 80's some more thought, see if there's anything 2nd hand, but most of the 2nd hand Neumanns I see are the older versions, people probably wanting to upgrade. Tells me they must like them.

You are knowledgeable on this, do you think I'm missing anything obvious other monitors choices in this price range? Bear in mind, small and compact is really important. If I had to pick another contender, it would maybe be a 2nd hand pair of the older version of KH 120 or KH 80, but I'm kinda weary of buying 2nd hand now.

A lot of people talk about Genelec a lot, but I hear mixed things too. Not to mention all the high tech with the Neumanns.

BTW, don't remember where but I read somewhere some guy saying we shouldnt trust DSP correction at all etc, but after watching all the Neumann videos and reading up, I'm convinced this isn't the case.

 

Since you mentioned you have a pretty small studio space, your bass is never going to be rock solid. Far from it actually. It will have *massive* nulls and peaks, not to mention an awful decay which will muddy up the rest of the listening experience. See it as a positive: one less aspect to worry about.

 

Yeah, I need to look at the specs more about how low the DSP correction works. I was thinking maybe the DSP correction could take care of a lot of this, but I think it works down to what, 100hz?
In terms of a small studio space, I could still get the KH 120's and use the trim to cut some bass out if needed? This also gives me flexibility to use them in a larger room when I move at some point.

 

im for soo long using NS10m (almost 20years), Genelac, and few a long the way like Sceptre, Yammies, Focal and Tannoy... and recently about a month or so add KH120 in our main studio (a well built studio) for post production/sound design work... it is amazing.. i love how detail it can be and making mixing decision a lot easier.. our client also happy with the outcome (about 15 tvc jobs done thru these speaker), none of them have any feedback about the mix we send out.. i never familiar with Neumann speaker/monitoring products line, only with their mics over the years... and because this KH120 so great, I ask our finance dept to get another pair but KH80 for editing studio and for me a Neumann NDH30 to paired with my Sundara.. amazing.. i still love my sundara because of it is a good reference cans.. but NDH30 have more clinical sound..not too hype and not too dull.. NDH30 over any HD series.. and this is my personal experience and opinion for short period of time with it, cant comment about KH80 in comparison as not yet received the pair but yahhh i would say, i am so impress with Neumann monitoring line.. the KH120 straight forward out from RME UFX

 

I have experience for around 13 Years now with DSP Speakers. I used many years Genelec DSP Monitors(with the SAM system) and also had the first Neumann KH120 A and now for about a year the KH120 II DSP Version.
First of all, the DSP-Technology is pretty well developed over the years. I never had any glitches delays or failing (once the measurement is done and stored to the speakers)
As early adopter i did extensive testing comparing the KH120A vs KH120II. Without the measurement in default mode. the KH120II are only slightly better than the first generation. they go a little deeper 44hz than the first generation and sound a little more clear in the high mids.
But this is very...VERY small difference. you have to A/B test same signal to really hear the difference.

With DSP-Measurement this is another story. It can help a little in bad rooms with no proper acoustic treatment.
but beware: the term "Room correction" is Marketing Bullshit. It does not exist and is physically not possible
a software / dsp can never correct a "room" ... its always EQ / Phase. So yes it works and for me it helps in a not so optimal enviroment.

Its not a "game changer" but a better solution and more practicable
than using additional software like ARC or Sonar Sound_ID which i both tested and find sound terrible .. (just my opinion)

My current Setup is: Neumann KH120II with an Babyface Pro FS. as Bad-Speakers i also use my crappy "Auratones", which i absolutely Love (for its tight mid-range sound to double check mixes)

 

Genelecs are fine, lots of people like them. Personally, I've worked in a lot of studios that have them, and I don't get on with them - to me they sound cold/clinical. I'm also not a fan of the PSI 'house sound' for the same reason. This doesn't make them bad; it makes them not suited to the way my brain works.

The kh80's + 750 combo is imho one of, if not thee best bang for your buck you can get at the price point. If you want substantial gains, you're jumping up significantly in price. As an example, my next planned upgrade (addition actually, as I won't be selling the Neumanns) is Amphion Two18's - which I've used plenty of times, absolutely love, and know they are a wonderful companion to the Neumanns.
If I didn't go Amphion, I'd be looking at ATC scm25's (again, which I've worked on a lot) or tbh KH310s and a second 750.

There are other speakers in the price bracket that are great, but there aren't many that come with a dsp calibration system that's as closely integrated.

It's also highly dependent on your taste, what you need from monitors, and how well you know what you need

This is giving "get off my lawn, you pesky kids"

It works across the entire range that the speakers output. It does what it calculates to be necessary.

I think you're overthinking this. I realise this is a significant purchase, but as someone who has used both 80s and 120s, the difference isn't as apparent as you think it will be. It exists, but regardless of the music you're making, familiarity with your monitors, and being able to interpret what they're telling you is what gets you a good mix that translates.

If you really want to hear (as opposed to "get a sense of") around 50Hz, you need a sub, or significantly larger, more powerful mains. But plenty of well-produced, bass-heavy music is produced all the time on "crappy" monitors, or cheapy headphones plugged directly into the headphone jack of a macbook.

Both the 80s and 120s have plenty of information well below their frequency spec charts. The translation with both sets is excellent - I have a personal preference for the 80's for the reasons I mentioned before, and if I didn't have the sub, I'd still choose to work on them.

A lot of people making bass-heavy music make this mistake, thinking they need absolutely slamming low end to be able to work - unless you're exclusively playing your tracks on really well-calibrated club PA's, how many of your listeners will be listening on similar systems? The vast, vast majority will be on airpods and phone/laptop speakers. I'm not saying it's not good to hear what's going on down there, but you can work on speakers that don't have massive low-end extension, so long as they're reasonably accurate and you take the time to learn them.

Like, I'm sitting at my desk now, with a sub that goes down to 18Hz - and the bass isn't slamming, it's just..... there. That's the whole point of a sub, it's not to draw attention to itself, it's just to do a little bit of accurate filling-in at the bottom, and take some load off the satellites. That's also how the MA1 will calibrate the system to sound. Like I said before - when it's done right, the sub perceptually disappears, in that the sound is a coherent whole, you can never consciously distinguish the sub working, it just sounds like the 80s are defying the laws of physics.

Both sets of Neumanns wihtout the sub are sufficiently accurate to make decisions confidently, that will translate. Sure, the sub is absolutely a worthwhile, and very enjoyable upgrade, butfor anything you are a bit unsure about, that's what referencing your tracks on other systems is for!

If you have any in your location, find a store with a good return policy - ask them if you can audition both pairs in your place for a week or two. So long as they know you're fairly certain you want one of the pairs you're auditioning, they should be amenable.

 

Last edited: Aug 16, 2024

Thank for all the information guys, I really appreciate all the insights from everyone, truly. It gives me more confidence in this purchase.

I can test the 2nd hand pair of KH 120 A, the guys is selling them for 750 eu / 827 usd. The other option is the KH80's which I can get for 882 eu / 972 usd - so basically 100 dollars more gives me the newer version with DSP capabilities but SLIGHTLY less bass.

Tough decision.. but I'm leaning now towards the KH80's. The guy with the KH 120 A is happy enough to drop by and show me anyway in exchange for a sixpack since he doesn't too far away. Holland is small

I like everyones idea about the kh80's + 750 combo - although there's no way that will work for me now, who knows in a few years. The reason I was thinking about the KH120's was hoping to avoid craving more bass, but I think they might manage as I can monitor bass also in headphones.

EDIT - I supposed so much of my doubt in the KH 80's was that I just couldn't believe such a small monitor could pack a punch, but I guess I might be wrong. I try to test both if possible, and take it from there.

Peace

 

Last edited: Aug 18, 2024