I am not disagreeing with you, about the non-directional nature of bass on most playback applications. I've said as much in an earlier post. Moving enough air and the distances involved makes the directional of signals bellow ~200 Hz kind an exercise in futility.

I am just saying that an ME would not automatically high pass your mix if there are not any phase issues down low.

I will explain very little so that others can follow along and not for Spence's benefit since like me he is a dinosaur and lived back in the days when this was new and exciting tech. He's been around a bit longer than me and I respect that. As stated before, I agree with him on the technique and I am not trying to be pedantic, just passing on information.

The V/L or M/S terminology dates back to when stereophonic recordings first came out and when recording engineers didn't have that many channels to work with and before there was discreet L and R channels. Just LCR.

L Microphone(+)--------C Microphone(+/-)-------------R Microphone(-)

The band would play in a room in front of the L/V array and the listener got a stereo signal when it was decoded.

The mono (C) legacy signal was the mid signal that would be put out to both channels. It dictates the general amplitude of the signal the sides were L microphone and the Right microphone in opposite phase correlation. Generally L+ / R- (which how a phonograph needle generates a signal.)

The vertical signal (the needle moves up and down) is the mid signal and transmits equal voltage to the L and R speaker.

The horizontal signal (the needle moves side to side) voltage is sent deferentially to each speaker based on the phase sum of the horizontal amplitude of the the side to side signal.

So the sides are information that is excursive to either the Left (+) or Right (-) that can not be summed to the middle (vertical) and does not sum to zero (that's phase cancellation for you.)

Ok, enough of that I am sure someone somewhere has written a book on the subject and is much more eloquent and sober for that matter than I am or can be.

While a mixer or someone doing their own mastering has all the freedom they want to high-pass and low-pass signals on individual signals of the stereo output channel (yes, I am assuming 2CH) and deal with the phase shifts in sound of the phase shifts a filter introduces and then sum the signals as they see fit and the freedom to love or hate that sound, an ME might not want to mess with an other person's sound more than they feel is really necessary. The assumption is always that the people who sent you something know what they are doing and that changing it as little as possible unless otherwise directed to keeps everyone happy and coming back.

Though to be honest in an all digital world the phase distortion (unless using modeling EQs) of filters is minimal and some people kind of like the sound. There are loudness considerations and playback system consideration as stated above... vinyl will get the sides low cut a bit as safety measure so that no large high amplitude shifts (bass) cause the needle to jump out of the groove, the entire track will also get de-emphasized as well for that same reason and emphasis will be added back by the phonograph pre-amp on playback....

Ok am rambling a bit - removing bass from the sides is not a bad thing, especially if you do it on each track with panning and filters and then mix around the individual sonic signature imparted by the filters - assuming an ME will automatically do it if you don't not always the case....

But like everything else in life - life is too short / do what makes you happy, what works for you and what you like. Thought it never hurts to know how the physics and mechanics of things work. I am going to finish this last glass of whiskey and go to bed.

Cheers

 

mozee beautifully put. I do remember using the 3 track ampex.
I always have the 200hz side filter in the master bus so I don't know what it sounds like without it.
Never think to try. Just opens another can of worms to slow me down maybe.

The other thing that annoys me is when you mix a song for a Hollywood movie they always mono it. I understand its for people in the theatre being in different seats but it still pisses me off because I only watch videos at home on the big TV.
Spencer

 

Regarding pushing new strings at 1:50 - I should turn up volume on them only there, on through the rest of the track, except the very end, when there is no more drums?

 

Hey man, here is how I approach my EDM productions with no vox to carry them.
Think of it like a band or group. Sure certain elements are expected to be font and center (kick, snare, subs, main vox...etc) but with the absence of lead vox you have to keep something else in the (stereo and freq) part of the track to fill that void and engage the listener to keep them interested. More often than not for me (and keeping up with the trends), its a top bass layer or group minus the subs or a layered lead usually swapping between them in the different parts of your track.
This is just how I developed and realized that there is always needs to be a certain element to be center stage, to carry the song for that part. But its different for every composition IMHO

 

Last edited: Nov 19, 2017

Strings a feature when nothing else is going on as subGENRE says. It becomes the solo for that section.

 

Ok Ok only for that section. Closing in on export version They do sound powerful in that section - I revererated them - again spencer was right. Damn I almost centered the guitar and the cello, with cello having that stereo delay which transfers it a bit to the opposite side. Now cello and guitar function as that main part, like male and female singer, but with the cello more on the left. Will upload soon.

@subGENRE yes, I get it. Learning on the go, but didnt actually destroy anything in song, thanks to incredible support here. Just following suggestions in increments

 

By the way subGENRE I just learnt recently that there should only ever be one feature happening in a song at the same time.
You can have a vocal line and instrumental answer but not a different line over the top of the vocal or instrument.
It makes perfect sense when you think about it. Just listen to any great arrangement.
Spencer

 

Wow, this pad added so much to it.

@spencer26
- Added some details after 1:45, 1:50, added swoosh there and at the last section.
- compressed and reverberated vocals more, added them as more details after 1:45
- added a bit more reverb to claps
- pad centered stereo, increased volume and open filter in mid section, 1:50, cut down, lowered volume later, behind main instruments - added more sidechain effect to it
- some new transitions created simply but starting and stopping pads, added two swooshes
- wow me happy

 

String solo way to quite.

 

I knew it!

 

Start the filter on the strings so it is quite warm then gradually open it out and then close it down again till it feels right.

 

Percussion over the Cello and Guitar solo is too loud.

 

Perc was the same level as before. By perc you mean claps, or claps and shaker/hat?

 

Now to mastering.
Put a Multiband Compressor first or after the MS Equalizer if you are using it to remove under 200hz on the sides.
Set the multiband to 2 bands. Crossover at 70hz.
Hold about 3db compression on the bottom end and about 1db on the other band.
Then go through an SSL Bus compressor with 40ms attack and fastest release at 4to1.
Holding about 4db.
Then go through the Oxford Limiter or similar.
Set output to -.1 db.
Then push the input level to the Oxford Limiter up to where your track sounds at the same volume as other music in your genre.
This is a starting point.
Spencer

 

Whatever percussion come in when the cello starts.

 

Got your point, good argument. I however often tend to see it more like an orchestra where allmost every instrument is more or less left or right.

@spencer26 Ok, you're right side eqing isn't dynamically changing the pan but static. I made a short test tune and had some irritating results concerning static pan and correlation (temporarily dropped to 0). So what I've learned is that this at the moment beyond my limits and I keep my hands off it.

And what about classical music where sometimes different groups are playing different melodies in their different (pan) position at he same time? And what about jazz or prog rock where sometimes up to four people playing kind of solo at the same time too? Again all in their different pan positions?

Great thread, learning lots of things.

@prog_trance_enthusiast Sorry for temporarily hijacking this thread for side aspects.

 

Last edited: Nov 19, 2017

Its perfectly fine @No Avenger I think I solved the problematic guitar tone by equing that resonating freq down. Now Im of to mastering list that spencer suggested.

Now thats a section I practically know nothing about, so It might take a day till I apply and AB everything, presuming I find all those plugins I didnt use mid/side on master channel, just global eq to remove freqs.

Gonna go through the list @spencer26. Regarding the perc, is that in second part of the song, when cello starts playing again? claps, shakers and others have the same volume through the song. Will tone it down, if those are the problem.

"This is the starting point" is the part of your list which scares me and that ssl bus is a plugin with no hardware needed?

Thank you!

 

Last edited: Nov 19, 2017

T-racks bus compressors are good replacement for SSL Bus.
Yes just take down the percussion.

I just watched the First 15 minutes of Shoshtokovich 4th Sympony and there was no real meldoies playing over each other. There were supporting Vamps etc and different instruments playing different parts of the melody one after each other.
But I will study classical more.
For Jazz (my favourite music) pretty much anything goes.
Listen to a Band like Ramestein. Perfectly crafted heavy metal.

Approaching mixing from the point there is only one solo at a time really helps define the mix in terms of clarity.
If you have frequencies overlapping each other and causing a blur you have to fix that.
Wow we are starting to go deep here.
spencer

 

Thank you. I got waves ssl bus comp. Its OK to use it? Dont have oxford limiter so fabfilter pro L is gonna do for limiter option?

I hope I didnt blur everything now? It sounds pretty good compared to versions before? Or you talked in general about a topic in the last post. Its going to be an exciting and long night for me. Didnt even dream we will get to this phase when I posted the first post

 

If you're meaning Rammstein , yes, that's one of my favourites, great sound on the madison square garden dvd (studio albums not to mention).

totally agreed

Really turns out to be one of the longest, most instensive and informative threads for just one song

 

Last edited: Nov 19, 2017