You misspelled the word you tried to correct. Correcting people's spellinks in the interwebz is pretty hilarious, but going for it & failing at it like you did? Pretty much my point.

No more was expected of you

A theory should be able to compose music. A useful theory is both descriptive ("this is why a dog wags her tail") and prescriptive ("if you want your dog to wag her tail, do ____").
So coding up an app to generate correct music ("music theory correct," music that doesn't break any rules) is pretty straightforward (Google "computer generated music"). Same deal with scripting a chatbot (to generate grammatically-correct sentences, "well-formed formulae"). Or better, stuff like Google/Amazon Alexa -- not just syntactically, but appropriate & factually correct. & getting better all the time.
If there isn't much happening in computer music (there isn't afaik), it's not because it's difficult. The reason's roughly the same that kept mud pie and sandcastle manufacture stagnant, at cottage-industry levels: there's no demand

 

To repeat - if you take the piss out of people, expect people to interpret all of it as taking the piss. It's not rocket science.
But be a dog with a bone. Go for it, you are very good at assumptions.

 

@MMJ2017 .. Your answer to my rant about not needing music theory was...

"to anyone, a challenge

give 1 example in human history where

Ignorance = art.

Eric Clapton can't read music and has done fairly well without.

Michael Jackson is another.

John Lennon said, “None of us could read music… None of us can write it. But as pure musicians, as inspired humans to make the noise”

Eddie Van Halen said, "I did it all by ear”.

Robert Johnson grew up on the cotton fields with his mother, and never had the opportunity for formal musical training. During his school years he taught himself to play the harmonica and jaw harp rather well, and the style of singing and guitar that he developed has gone on to influence many artists.

"I was never taught how to play the guitar," Dave Grohl: " I don't know the chords to 'Everlong' [From 1997's The Color and the Shape"]. I only know what happens when I put my fingers there. But that riff is a good example of how I look at the guitar."

Slash said, "No, I can't read music. I play by ear. I try to make what I want to hear, sometimes in my head, come out of my hands and into my guitar. When I write music, I usually write on my own at least to start."

Hendrix is praised by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as "arguably the greatest instrumentalist in the history of rock music." In his biography, the singer, guitarist and songwriter, claims his inability to read or write music allowed him to focus better on the music he heard.

I myself wrote the majority of my songs without any knowledge of music theory as well as probably millions of others writing music, be it good, bad or amazing. I have been called an artist by other artists. During one of my solo performances I watched two girls sitting next to each other, one was crying uncontrollably while the other was laughing in hysterics during the same song. I guess I touched a chord for each of them although I was ignorant of your most important theoretical criteria.

So why and how can you still insist in the very obvious. Your premise is absurd, and that was one foolish challenge.

 

Poor you again ...
You are confused about theory and harmony , and you do not know about reality of music .
There is no "theory VS non theory" , it's unreal bullshit once more .
Ever heard of Django Reinhardt dude ?
He did not know music and once someone told him : but you don't know music ?
He answered : But music knows me !!!

You statement MMJ2017 is false, fake, not real .
Django composed lots of great songs and his music influenced hundreds of musicians .He had unbelivable ears and music was just flowing from
his inner self .
On the other side you have musicians that are well educated in theory, harmony , that can read anything and play it on the spot , but are
not creative or simply do not feel to write songs .
Once again you are wrong .
Do you think the Beatles or Stevie Wonder were so much educated in theory ? Certainly not as much as thousands of young people going out
from music schools ! Or even as i do ! But i am not Stevie Wonder i do not have his genius . I am not "the beatles" either !

I was writing this earlier :
Theory comes from studying the works of the masters .
Masters learn the work of others , they assimilate .Then if they are creative geniuses they go forward and create something new .
Then others study this "new" stuff .Then it is assimilated , then comes again someone with new stuff , and so on, since the "beginnings" .
But off course a guy that is so much confused as you are can not see the big picture , so you write whatever bullshit .

The pages charts and letter stuff you write here has nothing to do with how theory and harmony are being taught all over the world .
Now ENOUGH !!! I have been to a great music school in the States and i am a working musician .
ENOUGH with this bullshit you spread on this site , people can get disgusted about theory looking at your bullshit thet just exist in your head !
This is incredible !
You want to have the right against the whole musical world ? All books , schools , techers , musicians ?
You are such a ridiculous person with ridiculous pages of useless explanations about useless stuff .
You are a fake , you are not a musician , you are not a theorician , you are just a confused bullshit spreader ! ENOUGH !

 

He is completely outside of reality ...Shame .

 

At first I thought some people were being unnecessarily unkind and then I thought I was doing the same.
I then remembered being taught the only thing worse than anyone being poorly treated, was allowing the wrong information to be circulated to the entire population in the belief that the information was correct, because that is what happened when all of Germany thought Hitler was a hero until it was too late.

Radical comparison, but nonetheless, the message is making sure the information is correct.
Sometimes people have to be cruel to be kind I guess.

 

By the way, you misspelt misspelled... And spelling.

 

-Using the whole 12 notes of the chromatic scale in a piece in a non-Jazz fashion-
(What a Strange question !)
I guess there are many tunes that uses the 12 tones without us notifying it !

For ex : The secondary dominants chords will requires 12 tones !
"Secondary dominants" chords are not "jazz specific" lol ! Find them all over from classical to pop LOL !
In C :
C7 requires Bb
D7 requires F#
E7 requires G#
A7 requires C#
B7 requires D#&F#

You've got your 12 tones in a "non jazz fashion" LOL !
Happy ?

This "answer" lol is one between lots of others possibles answers to such a strange ("strange" being polite , stupid more appropriate)

 

@foster911
Foster, to follow up retsoff, if you want to look further, google "Tone rows" which is another way to use all twelve tones, except not in any specific order. The y have aslight difference being that anyone using them is not fixed to having to use all twelve tones. They can use some or all, being ordered or unordered.
A shortcut that might help you get some things faster is to also look up the difference between symmetrical and tonal movement when writing music. It will help you understand why retsoff, sunshine and myself became so frustrated with MMJ.
It will more importantly, help you understand what you seek in chromatic movement and usage when you change from it and when you go to a different place why it sounds a certain way.... IF you want to go that far.
It's a lot to take in. I apologise if it is too much but at least you have some things to google and work on in your own time rather than anyone trying to explain it.

 

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so you associate these artists with the phrase ( ignorance = art)?

bold move.

i wouldn't connect them with ignorance = art almost everyone of them worked on music their whole life everyday , took in all the information they could find.
reading sheet music or not ,does not have anything to do with music knowledge or music ignorance.

yes all the people(except a few like eddie van halen) could not "read music" but do you honestly associate the lack of ability to "read music"

equal to musical ignorance? I don't.
eddie van halen to you? (ignorance =art)?
lol

take Micheal Jackson since he was born he studied james brown and others and then look at his catalog of music (almost identical to james brown in all the best ways ps I love Micheal Jackson and James brown.

Micheal was operating on knowledge built up since he was a baby until he was a man he worked hard on music everyday of his life, that equals (ignorance=art) in your mind? lol

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/michael-jackson/biography
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01pjrpw/segments
Next with Blues, Rock n roll and RNB you have musically correct templates for the music setup like the minor pentatonic scale where every note you pick from outlines an arpeggio.
http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/guitarscales/a-minorpentatonic.html
meaning all the notes they choose from at any one point in time outlines a musically correct chord.this is a template.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale
the way that music is setup from the start is that whatever choice you make, it is impossible to choose a note that does not fit.
step 2 they listen to their contemporary's and idols of the same style to study the common melodies used with these musically correct templates.
this combination is still a type of study and knowledge. it is just that they use a template where you dont have to worry about naming things only listening and memorizing patterns.
I myself have a hard time considering this whole process ( ignorance=art)
they are not ignorant of the style they are playing, the melodies commonly used, the beats timing and feeling, they are only ignorant of how the template was setup and the correct musical names for everything.

John Lennon

https://www.biography.com/people/john-lennon-9379045
John lennon learning music from childhood on in my mind cannot qualify as (ignorance=art)


http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME03/Words_and_chords.shtml



In all these cases, these people took from what they knew ( knowledge) in order to express themselves (art)
It has to do with the way human beings work in reality

Knowledge=art

 

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Some things to be aware of (for those who are not yet) :
The way we react to music is "Universal" .Studies have been made about how different people around the world react to music .In this case
they reacted to western music , "Classical music" .
People reacted the same way almost all other the world even people who had not been listening to western music before !
When listening to certain pieces they reported the same kind of moods feelings and images coming to them .

So this kind of "theory VS Ignorance" is really ignoring the reality !
I learned music in that way !
Chords made an emotional impact on my ears .Chords , their families and colors .I used that emotional stuff to help my intellect relate it
naming chords and colors .
I am no one special , we all have that skill , some more than others , but we all have it and we have the posibility to develop it and go further !
If you hear a diminished 7th sound for ex , someone telling you : this is a "diminished 7th sound" , you will remember , because
the sound is so typical ! You don't even need to "have a good ear" .
It is all a matter of practice and training , and in the best case doing in a playing dicovering mood


It explains what it means to "play by ear" .Physical ear is not the matter ... The ear we talk about is the inner hear related to the brain
and its understanding of music as a language .
Kids do not know about grammar when baby start to talk ! They can talk well before reading and writing .
Same with music .
Gypsys can play great sophisticated stuff without knowing theory and reading music .They have been hearing music since they are in their mother's womb !

Practicing music will make you a good musician , practicing theory alone never .
Theory can help the ear and the ear can help theory .
Things are not separated . I know how to analyse some tunes , what to play on them , but if i do not hear it inside , if i do not feel it
theory will not give me the impulse to go further and i will not be able to play the tune no matter how much i know .
If it is hard , very hard but within my reach of "feel" i can work at it and make it .
As a musician it is a part of the game to know where you are , what you like .
Very few people can be good at everything .
Some are overgifted , like Jacob Collier for ex , but man this guy is just talking about the same concepts i talk !
Chords sounds rythms make an emotion on him , he listen , reproduces , analyses , went to school to learn the terminology but
he had it all developed inside . I do not compare me with this overgifted great musician but real honest musicians almost always
talk this way . It is reality that is this way .You do not have to be a genius to feel the work of a genius musician .
True genius musicians make you feel good .Then you say wow what's he doing ? Work at it , investigate .
They have raised you up .Theory is just a tool , if it does not help you to reach your goal, you do not need it.
If you want to write in the style of O.Messian for an orchestra i guess it is a good thing to study as much as possible ... lol

 

same guy saying :
"a song written with no knowledge of theory compared to one with the knowledge of theory is just like comparing a house built by someone with no experience or knowledge compared to a highly trained carpenter. etc.
its a fact about reality ignorance= misunderstanding knowledge = power"

So the dude is saying one thing and the opposite .Dude you are so confused ! Damn what stuff are you on ? Strong i guess watch your health !

 

@superliquidsunshine
Ignorance is such a huge word with so many implications and a word that I am not convinced should be used except possibly on ourselves when we speak.. e.g.
Ignorant of when I am going to die - I fricking would like that to stay that way..
Ignorant of music - Nirvana was ignorant of written music and harmonically some of it initially was considered completely wrong, but to say they were ignorant musically because they never went to school? They sold millions of records so if anyone says they are ignorant it also says the millions of people that bought their music also are (same with the ones mentioned)
Ignorant of what Politician's are doing that nobody knows about - that is a forced ignorance because nobody tells us...
Ignorance because of lack of education - There is a flip side to that when I see other people poke fun at someone because they happened to be born out of a different womb and never had to struggle. This to me makes the taunter more ignorant.
Ignorance in a discipline of Art which is the root of the apparent impossibility. In the simplest terms I seriously doubt that Picasso sat there thinking about the mechanics of what he was painting and that he had to stay true to what every art critic said when he painted works that are now worth millions. Hang on, they called him ignorant of what art is lol.

Ignorance is not one of my favourite words because I have found half of the time, the people pointing are often the most ignorant of all.
Awareness however is the greatest gift a human can have because it allows us to technically learn anything that is humanly possible to learn if we wish. So much more useful and it is a choice. Oh and I agree with you, because a person cannot read or understand the technicalities of music means nothing. I grew up with a guy named Tommy Emmanuel and I have known him technically for forty years. He is a monster and he does not read one single note of music but he knows his harmony, all by ear.. Ambiguous statements often have flaws.
Cheers

 

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Also if a person is completely dyslexic and can never read a note, no matter how hard they try, does this make them ignorant through no fault of their own? Of course not. They can learn by ear and there are more dyslexic musicians out there than people realise and some of them are fabulous musicians.

 

Here is a lesson from someone that knows their harmony and does not read a note @MMJ2017
People queue up to get lessons from him now and this was over 20 years ago. He's too busy touring these days around the world to give lessons.

So please tell everyone this is not art in any form or that because he cannot read means he does not know his harmony. Listen to somewhere over the rainbow. The harmony knowledge is obvious to anyone that knows ANYTHING about music.

or this one

or

 

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Is this a battle of the best Somewhere over the Rainbow on guitar?

 

Half a billion views. 2.6 million upvotes. Competition is none.
~~drops mike~~

 

@dragonhill

That made me laugh

No MMJ told everyone basically that ignorance in music never can be called art and basically that if a person did not read and learn harmony that way did not know harmony. It's a bit more complicated than that but that's the gist of it.

Tommy cannot read a note of music. Several people have basically tried to say quit while you are ahead but that ended I think about 5 pages ago before I even came onto this thread.
No it's just asking MMJ to tell everyone now that Tommy does not know his harmony, which is really obvious he does if a person has any musical ears at all.
P.S Ted knows his harmony too which is also obvious and Israel also did not read music either and that's a unique version all of its own.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2018