this is not "theory" this is the skeleton ghost behind the emotional content that your ears perceive....this is the shit man....forget genre...its meaningless

 

When we say a chord resolves to another chord what we are talking about is the individual notes of one chord resolving to the individual notes of the resolved chord, and whether each one of those notes resolves in a weaker or stronger way.
resolving to Cmajor

G9#5#11

so the notes are G B D# F A C#


G carrys over G 5th of CEG (no resolve just rings out)
B resolves to C (strong)
D# resolves to E (strong)
F resolves to E (strong)
A resolves to B (weaker) ( or A carrys over to A 6th in CEGA C6)
C# resolves to C (strong)

5 resolutions, 4 strong 1 weaker




----------------------------------------
G9#5#11 resolving to C minor ( C d# G a# )


G B D# F A C#
G carrys over to G 5th (no resolve just rings out)
B resolves to A# (strong) of C d# G a#
D# carrys over to 3rd d# (no resolve just rings out)
F resolves to G (weaker)
A resolves to A# (strong)
C# resolves to C (strong)

4 resolutions 3 strong 1 weaker

we can see here that G9#5#11 resolves stronger to Cmaj then it does for Cmin, however it resolves to Cmin if you want just not as strong.

the whole point is you can resolve a chord to any destination, you just want a solid one, since i was demonstrating how everything related to 1 key c major key, it didnt make much sense to resolve to some other key that is not exactly helpful to resolve to as chord not in your key
MMJ2017

lets look at difference between Cmajor and Cminor

C major C E G B
C minor C D# G A#


do you see it?

C minor resolves to C major

the D# and A# in C minor occurs much later in the harmonics of a C note than the E and B do.

D# resolves to E ( strong resolution)
A# resolves to B (strong resolution)

Source:
http://historicaltuning.com/Harmonics.html

where was the info "not exactly correct"? please show that part which was not thank you fine sir.
I just don't get it,what would be the point of me posting info that was not exactly correct?

everything I say ,I am willing to demonstrate.
I only post information that is demonstrable.

 

Last edited: Apr 7, 2018

Short:

Eb is the minor 3rd of Cminor also the #5 of G- It is a common minor II|V chord that is used to resolve to a minor not a major.
Every jazz song of worth in history that uses it, does for that purpose with only a few exceptions when it is voice leading based.
While I think retsoff was a little hard on you a G7#5 is common to resolve to a minor rather than a major.

Both of you should have simply said:
"Here are some links if you want to learn more", then none of this bullshit would have occurred.
Maybe you guys should tear each other up and sweep the floor with testosterone privately.
I am waiting for a street sweeper video to come in now

 

I, too, was skeptical. Before hearing 00:00:00 in Wall of Text Major, his brilliant contribution to the Audiosex Jazz Album, that is.
A real page-turner! Musical minimalism at its finest.

"It's not the notes you play, it's ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ asjhjhkfciur." -- Miles Oftext Davis

 

again any chord can resolve to any destination you are choosing ( if it actually does resolve)
but what i am wondering is when i expressed clearly that c major KEY was the center point

you just randomly taking about c minor i dont get it a chord can resolve to any number of 100 chords that the individual notes resolve to but in my example the specific thing i was showing how to take G whole tone and all of its dom7ths that resolve back to Cmajor

C minor resolves to C major also

the notes in C minor occur much later on in the harmonics of C notes therefore Cminor is more dissonant than C major anyway. sure you can resolve to 100 different chords, which ever one was your initial destination .
a dom7 can resolve to another dom7 there is literally 1000 choices to resolve to IF you are just asking a question " what can X chord resolve to?"
but the point is that you pick your destination to START with than work your way to it in order to demonstrate all the connections.
when a person can see all the connections back to C major, they can then see how the same would apply to EVERY key.this is why i explain that C major is where we are resolving to in my demonstrations earlier.

the demonstration i was explaining was not a jazz song of history.
infact the OP clearly indicates NOT jazz read the title .

 

Last edited: Apr 7, 2018

What's the difference between a Db7b5 and a G7b5? - Nothing the bass notes swap otherwise both contain identical harmony - the same notes. You put a #11 this is a b5 an octave higher it's a tri-tone. If you want to go the tri-tone path back to C, a Dbmaj13#11 would have worked better or even Db13#11 depending on what the preceding harmony was.

Retsoff was right. You've missed the point. Harmony wise what I said is simple 101 stuff. It is at the core.
A 13#9 has 2x tri-tones in it but I won't even go there because they will be cleaning it off the fan next.
I'm done it's like watching a dog with a bone he got from the wrong hole.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2018

Not trying to be a dick, but those are interpretations and not songs built from a foundation. More to my point, of course any chord can be extended to include every note, then the next chord and the next until the answer to the Pink Panther is satisfied, but in my mind theory is never the foundation of any art form or work, but it is rather at times a fantastic way to explain what already has been accomplished. As I play a single note that sustains for 8 measures, only to ever so slightly bend that string up a half tone for a quarter note, it is not theory that informs me, but rather raw emotion translated to my own informed idea of what I mean to convey, and most of the time I am rather unconscious for my actions. Theory at its best is learned and forgotten else it becomes a hindrance to the (my) creative process. It must (could) reside under the translucent blanket of natural or innate creativity and only reveal itself after the birthing process. First comes the plastic idea and then may the rigid stone of linear thought.
I do have a song that might fit into the thesis using all forms of the chromatic scale besides Eb and Bb, although as notes are of course included in a few other chords. Should I record a rough take and post it for you to decide if it fits the bill here? It is called "Loved Not Been Lately?" which is both the first and last line of the lyric.

 

Man! ...
You are making such a fool out of yourself i almost feel pity for you .

Cmajor = C E G
Cminor = C Eb G

Basic, but even on basics you have to be confuse and unclear ! Such a shame !

CEGB = Maj7th
CD#GA# is a horribly spelled Cmin 7th chord : C Eb G Bb .Where is the need to write it in such an way ? Enharmonic writing is often used
to simplify reading , why doing the reverse ...


You have a need for confusion , making simple things weird and complicated .
Stop writing charts with letters , it's just not serious either .

 

@MMJ2017

If you reply MMJ do in English nothing here requires anything other than a description..

See the main thing you have missed is there are no secret chords, secret jazz harmony, which you just do not get which tells me a lot. You say no jazz harmony. It's all harmony the same harmony. No style owns it.
.. Whether you take a Beethoven score, Mozart, Gil Evans, Bob Mintzer, Duke, Stravinsky or a Basie score - it's all harmony.
You seem to miss that harmony works under a series of qualifiers not a bunch of notes thrown together. Where it comes from, where it is going and the voice leading.
Anyone can get a book and tell someone the notes in a chordal structure.

I do not think when I improvise anymore after decades because I hear it relative to what has come before and where it is going, but if I did, retsoff is correct.
- Most musicians even though it's enharmonically correct, know that the #5 on G7#5 is D#, they will however see it as an Eb and rightly so because they are in Cminor - see below a simple 8 bar structure. It is simple.
What is wrong with the harmony below MMJ? Is there anything wrong at all? - and if so, tell me what it is please, or it's all identical? or what.

Tell me what I have done... I know retsoff can but I am asking you MMJ and yes I know the answer and there is only one correct answer to this and it is not a long description but can be worded several ways.
|| Cm | Dm7b5 G7#5 | Cm | Abmaj13#11 G7#5 | Cm | Dm7b5 Db9#11 | Cm Fm Fm/Eb | Dm7b5 Db9#11 ||

An English description I know what the notes are. Anyone can do that. Keep in mind a melody note could change the above, but work with this simple 8 bar chord structure.
(Which by the way was originally written in 1928 in its simplest form)

 

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2018

I have heard this said before as you are saying it now. My position is that that is incorrect.( i don't think it matches how things really are)

Music theory just means the way music really works. yes there are a few types different from each other tonal music, modal music, poly-tonal music and Atonal music ( that is just for 12 tone E.T)


"..theory is never the foundation of any art form or work,.."

you are generalizing to the point of losing the plot because music theory, quantum theory and the theory of gravity are "theories" similar by semantics only.
next "art" simply means anything a human being does to express themselves.

zeroing in on "music theory"
it just means "how music works" ( that particular type of music being described in this thread in the context I brought up is "
Tonal music theory" which is different to other types.

yes they are.
interpretation no different than writing a song from scratch. you are using the way music works to add your taste

you just invented a situation where you played one single note than you say the theory doe snot inform you. I agree in that instance of playing a single note and bending it very true.

I think I agree with what you are expressing here, are you saying theory is to learn and to "run in the background" not putting your focus on it but instead putting your focus on being creative? YES that is exactly correct IMHO

i don't think you mean what you said learn it and then forget it, that would be counter productive but if you mean let your subconscious use the knowledge of the theory I agree
It is exactly how we use ALL knowledge whether learning our spoken language, the rules of basketball , how to interact in society etc.

sweet sounds good but please dont get the wrong idea of me which i see many people are, the thread asked a question using the whole chromatic scale, I preceded to offer up 1 technique in doing exactly that next thing i know people are "attacking me" on here( although their version of attacking me is saying D# is worse than typing a E and a b letter followed by it "Eb" just one flaw with this "b" is a music note oops.
this is why i type D# or Eflat, F# or G flat when i type in text like this i dont use the letter on the keyboard "b" to denote flat i type flat or # . I just cant figure out when bunch this messages to me are so nasty and attacks when the literal thing that happened was i responded to the OP thread title here is the summary of what I presented ( go back to other comments to see the in depth)

( I will sharp every note instead of using "b" letter as flat why do this? because the letter b is a note itself people get confused when you use a music note to represent some other thing so i choose not to do it that way)

We start with 12 chromatic notes

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C

2 whole tone scales
--------------------------
G A B C# D# F
C D E F# G# A#

the top row is dom9 flat 5 #5
the bottom row is Maj7 chord ( implying the entire key)


there is information hidden in there ( the secret part means "more understanding available" than just "on the surface"


G A B C# D# F

G root, A 9th B 3rd C# #11 or flat 5th D# #5th F 7th

each note is whole tone apart symmetrical
what this tells you is that

each note creates a dominant 9 #5 #11 chord

G9#5#11 resolves to C major
A9#5#11 resolves to Cmajor
B9#5#11 resolves to Cmajor
C#9#5#11 resolves to Cmajor
D#9#5#11 resolves to Cmajor
F99#5#11 resolves to Cmajor


next we take the A chord A9#5#11 it is from Dmajor therefore

G9#5#11 resolves to D major
A9#5#11 resolves to Dmajor
B9#5#11 resolves to Dmajor
C#9#5#11 resolves to Dmajor
D#9#5#11 resolves to Dmajor
F99#5#11 resolves to Dmajor

next we take the B chord B9#5#11 it is from Emajor therefore

G9#5#11 resolves to E major
A9#5#11 resolves to Emajor
B9#5#11 resolves to Emajor
C#9#5#11 resolves to Emajor
D#9#5#11 resolves to Emajor
F99#5#11 resolves to Emajor

next we take the C# chord C#9#5#11 it is from F#major therefore

G9#5#11 resolves to F# major
A9#5#11 resolves to F#major
B9#5#11 resolves to F#major
C#9#5#11 resolves to F# major
D#9#5#11 resolves to F# major
F99#5#11 resolves to F# major

next we take the D# chord D#9#5#11 it is from G#major therefore

G9#5#11 resolves to G# major
A9#5#11 resolves to G#major
B9#5#11 resolves to G#major
C#9#5#11 resolves to G# major
D#9#5#11 resolves to G# major
F99#5#11 resolves to G# major

next we take the F chord F9#5#11 it is from A#major therefore

G9#5#11 resolves to A# major
A9#5#11 resolves to A#major
B9#5#11 resolves to A#major
C#9#5#11 resolves to A# major
D#9#5#11 resolves to A# major
F99#5#11 resolves to A# major


all of this information is "secret" or "hidden" inside


G A B C# D# F
C D E F# G# A#

all of the above information is embedded inside this....

---------------------------------
G A B C# D# F
C D E F# G# A#
-----------------------------------

by writing this out for yourself

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C

then split into 2 whole tone scale ( G on top C on bottom)

G A B C# D# F
C D E F# G# A#

ALL the above information is built into ENDLESS substitutions available.

ANY chord in the top row ( in form of dom9#5#11)
resolves to ANY chord in the bottom row ( in form of maj7 or variant)
and implies that entire KEY structure from the chosen bottom chord row

think of it as 6 rows

123456
123456

the top black row is a Dominant 9 #5 #11 type chord
the bottom red row is a Major 7th type chord

any combination of top to bottom is possible and sounds just as good as any other.

lets try some

A9#5#11 resolves to Emaj9
D#9#5#11 resolves to Cmaj7
F9#5#11 resolves to F#maj7


we have chosen 3 tops to 3 bottoms

lets take 1 and expand the progression based on the bottom row KEY

A9#5#11 resolves to Emaj9
-----------------------------------------

D#min7flat5 G#7 C#minor is the minor ii V i of Emajor key
A9#5#11 is V7 of Dmajor and the major ii V I of Dmajor KEY is
Emin7 A9#5#11 Dmaj9

so we can take both sections and connect together

Emin7 A9#5#11 Dmaj9, D#min7flat5 G#7 C#minor

this is just opening the door to what this gives you


------------------------
G A B C# D# F
C D E F# G# A#
------------------------

lets now expand to the full 12 rows!





------------------------
G A B C# D# F
C D E F# G# A#
------------------------

------------------------
G# A# C D E F#
C# D# F G A B
-------------------------





now we have 2 sections giving 12 dominants and the appropriate 12 maj7 KEYS that match




So I don't know why so many are misunderstanding me.
what literally (for real) took place was that the op asked a question, then I responded with 1 specific way to deal with the chromatic scale and instantly expand to all key relationships.( going from Cmajor out to every possible substitution in order)
next thing i know are weird angry messages and bizarre behavior unrelated to the OP or the very specific example I gave to the OP
weird right?

 

Last edited: Apr 7, 2018

When notes are stacked or put in succession, one may not like the resulting tone, but another one do.

I think pleasantness is different for all people. Jazz musicians interpret and appreciate the harmony different than others.

Pleasantness like other sensations needs development but I've not succeeded in getting it like the Jazz musicians do and I'm not sure they really like it or pretend.

Without digesting the pleasantness, I wouldn't be able to follow the Jazz because I want to let sounds play with my soul and not in a compulsory manner. Jazz isn't in harmony with my brain.

 

Well no, an interpretation by its very definition is not a unique song, it is built upon other's work, the chord structure and lyrics and the essence of that song it means to interpret. If I started making money off of my version of Stairway To Heaven I would be sued for infringement, obviously, even if I added a flat 5th to all the chords and weirded out my interpretation by singing the song like Cher might sing it. The songs you posted are all obviously Imagine no matter the arrangement. Gee wiz, everybody needed to get clearance to publish their version.

In addition, maybe you intellectualize and divorce yourself from your instincts when you compose, but I certainly don't and I know of no other artist that does. A feeling comes over me and I go from there. Do really feel that Paul McCartney began composing Yesterday by analysis of chord structure? Hardly. Beethoven wrote from what came through to him from the aethers and I am pretty sure that he didn't get hung up on technicalities. How could he? The spark of creativity doesn't come from thinking about things to death, but rather by just being open to that place between the lines when it avails itself to your distinct form of imagining magic.

 

I appreciate @MMJ2017 's and others' efforts and I admit that the problem is with me. I need to hear more and more and develop my listenings but I don't know whether I can manage to harmonize with the complicated harmonies or not.

 

I gotta give it to you that you have a way to make the most unusual and messy-ending threads, but unlike what you might believe today, my friend, you need to study music and get formal education in the matter if your interest is so keen. There's one thing you have to realize if I'm allowed an opinion:

You gotta learn the rules before you can break them.

It's that simple. You can't just go around asking questions, enlightening yourself with half-baked answers from your random study, and bashing music genres and trends just because you have a mouth and a keyboard in a computer. I only say this because you seem to have a genuine interest in music and theory. You must love music. Once you get formally educated, either one of two things will happen: (1) You'll clear your head and finally adopt and accept that music has been written and studied for centuries in a way for a reason, or (2) You'll informedly revolutionize the music world because after having been a real scholar, you decide that our conception of music is upside down and you'll do great things. As for me, I am in terms with the little amount of music I know, and the bass-playing skill I practice hard to improve upon. Past the age of 40, becoming better at an instrument is a higher toll than when you are younger, and I am happy to be a member of this great place where I learn from everything that people want to share, however opinionated and strong-willed some of us can be.

Peace, always.

 

Last edited: Apr 7, 2018

The only thing that can not be taught is love. Knowing lots of theories and technicalities is irrelevant to the appreciation of any piece of art from the human sensation's perspective. Humans get the beauty of art differently than the physically matching of the harmonics of the notes. Formal educations don't do anything with the humans' sensations.

Harmony is an extremely complicated matter and isn't only restricted to Jazz. Jazz doesn't contain the whole spectrum of the harmonies that can be perceived regarding the whole sounds.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2018

is this to me? sorry i dont know who it is addressed to.
Im going to feel like idiot if it not supposed to be towards me sorry in advance lol
just wondering from the aspect of "reality" what is " unique song" ( not definition of words but what "actually" is it compared to just "song"

making money off stairway to heaven? what are we discussing? i never made any point about making money off stairway to heaven

my comment to you related you your comment about "interpretation"
was that the music itself is no different , meaning how you start off with a melody next make 100 versions of it is the same whether a brand new song a old song or a interpretation because its music itself maybe you just didnt know what i meant.

the whole idea is you asked way back how to make music from the theory next i answered i showed you you take a existing song and then practice your skills ( if not comfortable making new brand new song from scratch yet)

see this to me strikes me as very bizarre, because i get the concept of what you are describing in this sentence but the part about attaching it to me , what context is this in? what you referring to? I never made any statement that i do that, how did we end up at a sentence like this where you are referring to me in this unusual way?

this is weird too you are talking about analysis of chord structure, but isn't HE the one writing starting from a blank page? so no of course I dont fell that he "began composing" ( a blank peice of paper") by analysis of chord structure, because analysis of chord structure MEANS looking a a written chart and understanding the theory behind it. hard to do with blank piece of paper.
you are talking about music theory "as if" it was about looking at music which exists and then understanding which is impossible if you are starting with a blank piece of paper.
but what he DID do was had all the knowledge of music theory ( to pretty good degree anyway) and used that knowledge demonstrably. his songs cannot be accidentally written as they were .

listen man i like you but i have to call it you just telling a story here, anyone can research this and the answer is not what you are describing.
please take no offense but serious you not taking care to make sure you describing accurately.
(it is well documented what methodology Beethoven used for each piece and accounts of his life during the moment of each song creation and then look at the song itself to reveal which techniques and knowledge is used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven

again, i dont disagree what makes you think i created this thread? the OP asked a question about something and I answered next thing i know you have a whole storyline and plots about me in your head, i have created zero assumptions about you fine sir, why? how would I be able to tell if what I imagine about you is real or fake? I just stick to questions asked and try to help by giving information.

the "spark" of creativity is not a problem , but it also is not 100 percent of the issue, we have to know how things work to be creative.
creativity means "human expression" nothing else.
you can be creative in any act.
but to be creative in music you have to know what it is how it works ( music existed and worked a certain way before you or I)
OR you could be creative by playing around with sounds and have nothing to do with creating music at all.
I take music serious i have dedicated every waking moment of the last 30 years to it with no break.
If another person thinks its a joke and their idea of putting in "effort", their idea of "creating music" is literally toying around with sound combinations prefabricated and cut splicing loops hey go for it have at it if they wanted.

my intention on this forum 100 percent of the time is to give knowledge away for free regarding music to those seeking it and havne't been able to find it yet. nothing else. I have zero ill will or anger or hatred for anyone here anywhere no matter how much they continue to express hatred towards me for sharing information, I know that I am A horrible person for answering questions right? for sharing knowledge?
I am a despicable horrendous person for showing demonstrable information

 

Last edited: Apr 7, 2018

I've posted this before but what the hell... it's amazing. Key changing via a cycle of fourths. When he gets to C he starts throwing in all kinds of stuff.

In terms of chromaticism, I would try harmonising scales into groups of intervals.

For example a C Major scale into pairs of thirds.

C-E / D-F / E-G / F-A / G-B / A-C / B-D / C-E

Now instead of playing each pair sequentially, try adding the notes between each pair.

The first pair C-E / D-F already has the movement of a semi-tone between the E and F.

So how about adding the note between the C and D ?

This basic concept can then be used through the entire scale. Essentially adding chromatic semi-tone based movement between each pair of thirds. Some pairs, like my example, already have a movement of semi-tone. So are limited to one chromatic passing tone.

Whereas others may have two options. In these cases use your ears and experiment.

Then try changing the interval with which to harmonise the scale with. EG 6ths.

Or try changing the mode or scale.

I know you said no Jazz. But I would highly recommend listening to this Bix Beiderbecke composition. Full of chromatic movement.

Though it is not relevant to the discussion I feel it's worth pointing out his early passing. As was especially common in that era.

Make the most of life...

Flashes

 

I’ll tell you what music education does, and I know you might disagree but here it goes. It helps you shape your sensations. It gives you root, background, and an informed sense of critical thinking skills because it is an organized form of analysis passed on generations after generations with the minimum distortion of content. Not all of us need it, but then we are average musicians (me) or geniuses you read about and see playing marvelous shows. Those guys and gals either go to music school or get trained (often at a very early age) or come from an extraordinaire musical background in their families. Trust me, musical sensations and great appreciation won’t come from YouTube and audio forums. At least not alone, and you seem to be scholarly oriented. Two plus two, my friend.

Edit 1: BTW, this thread is going to give me weeks of exploration in music. Thank you all.

Edit 2: Foster, at the very least learn a harmonic instrument. It will keep you so busy that we’ll miss you around here.

 

Last edited: Apr 7, 2018

not sure who could even disagree with this haha

 

Music theory from my perspective is exactly like when a baby from 1 year old to say 10 years old is taking information in everywhere around them about the spoken language from a baby on they take it in anywhere can get it learn what it all means then the brain stores it in the background so that they can later on just think a concept and the sentence comes out naturally.

music theory is like that too, thing is how many of us study and "take it all in" 100 percent? most people have below 50 percent and big gaps (still enough to make music though) I personally want to take it all in like a spoken language,( a 5 year old MAYBE has 50 percent of spoken language taken in IF lucky)
here is the thing those not versed well with music theory have to put lot of effort in with that part of writing like a very young child has to think about each word of a sentence and missing larger words and concepts.

creativity and expression is the MOST important part for sure. whether your spoken language or music
BUT just like a 5 year old has a hard time saying " Mother ,you are being so ambiguous I am unable to fathom your perspective in this matter" even though they FEEL it but cannot express it.
A person trying to write music has the creativity IN THEM but cannot figure out how to get it to come out.( if they dont actually know how music fully works)

take a trained brain surgeon and regular joe have them both erform brain surgery who will suceed?
take a trained skyscraper builder and a average joe have them both build a skyscraper who will succeed?
this is a factor of reality we can never change knowledge is power. ignorance = misunderstanding