Here are secrets
the most important chord of each key is the dominant.
you split the chromatic in half starting with G
G A B C# D# F
G whole tone

this is the G7 altered G root, A 9th B 3rd, C# is flat 5th, D# is #5th F is 7th
Since the notes are all equal whole tone apart each one of the notes equals the Dom7 Alt

G7 alt GABC# D# F
A7 alt ABC# D# FG
B7 alt BC# D# FGA
C#7 alt C# D# FGAB
D#7 alt D# FGABC#

all these resolve to C maj, Dmaj, Emaj, F#maj,G#maj, A#maj
-------
Now if we take the other whole tone scale starting on C we get the other half of chromatic scale

C D E F# G# A#
C whole tone

this is the C7 altered C root, D 9th, E 3rd, F# flat 5th, G# #5th, A# dom7th

Since the notes are all equal whole tone apart each one of the notes equals the Dom7 Alt

C7 alt CDEF#G#A#
D7alt DEF#G#A#C
E7 alt EF#G#A#CD
F#7 alt F#G#A#CDE
G#7 alt G#A#CDEF#
A#7 alt A#CDEF#G#

all these resolve to F maj, Gmaj, Amaj, Bmaj, C#maj, D#maj


this is how to use the chromatic scale to interweave and use all 12 notes, 12 keys, with every possibility

I is home V7 is away from home

I=iii=vi
ii=IV
V=vii

diatonic equivalents
(I=iii=vi,{ii=IV},V=vii)
example.

C major
I Cmaj, ii Dmin, iii Emin, IV Fmaj, V Gdom, vi Amin, vii Bmin7flat5

you have 7 chords in a key but really there are only 2 chords I and V7

CEGB = EGBD = ACEG
DFAC=FACE
GBDF=BDFA

the sub dom ii and IV Dmin,and Fmaj are part of the Dom7
GBDFACE
GBDF, BDFA,FACE
you have HOME CEGB, away from home GBDF
so really just focus on the dominant 7th then know what major key it is then your chord equivalents come to mind

diatonic equivalents
(I=iii=vi,{ii=IV},V=vii)

this is a way to start with 1 chromatic scale 12 notes, to derive every chord in every key and how keys them selves fit together.

 

Last edited: Apr 6, 2018

Here is an example how to make a song scaffolding with it.

So we start with 12 chromatic ,split in half( like a zipper) and we take G whole tone just make it easy deal with C major KEY.
C major KEY will be our focus


Now G whole tone

G A B C# D# F = GBC#D#FA G7 flat 5 sharp 5 add 9, or G9 #5 # 11 this resolves to Cmaj7 or Cmaj9(CEGBD)

BUT here is fun part the whole tone scale is symmetrical and makes all these all chords with SAME notes

G7 altered
A7 altered
B7 altered
C#7 altered
D#7 altered
F7 altered

they all same notes as each other which means , pick ANY one of these chords and it can resolve to Cmaj7 or Cmaj9 (CEGBD)

this shows you a bunch substitutions available ( starting on the simple C maj KEY)

we KNOW the "square" diatonic resolutions

GBDF resolves to CEG

we also know the
diatonic equivalents
(I=iii=vi,{ii=IV},V=vii)


SO

lets start with ii or IV as subdominant

IV, FACE then to vii, BDFA then to G7 GBDF then to Cmaj CEG

think of this as layer 1

now we add to this level of detail with our whole tone substitutions to add a layer of detail

lets take

B7 alt ( borrow from Emaj KEY)

precede with its ii

F#minor, B7 then (back to CmajKEY) IV, FACE then to vii, BDFA then to G7 GBDF then to Cmaj CEG

so the whole progression becomes

F#min B7 Fmaj Bmin7flat5 G7 Cmaj






lets try another one this time we will take ALL the Dom7ths Altered and precede with its IV then lastly end with its iii chord

( this lets us start with a subdominant and end with a tonic)

A whole tone
A7 altered
B7 altered
C#7 altered
D#7 altered
F7 altered
G7 altered

we will start with A in order to end with G7 alt

IV Gmaj V A7 iii F#min
IV Amaj VB7 iii G#min
IV Bmaj V C#7 iii A#min
IV C#maj V D#7 iii C min
IV D#maj V F7 iii D min
IV Fmaj V G7 iii E min


now connect those parts


Gmaj A7 F#min, Amaj B7 G#min, Bmaj C#7 A#min,C#maj D#7 Cmin,D#maj F7 Dmin,Fma G7 Emin

This would be our scaffolding to then build the actual song from

 

Last edited: Apr 6, 2018

Next how to use this in a way that does NOT sound like JAZZ!

well, in JAZZ each instrument works a certain way the lower BASS region establishes the roots of the chords while being in quarter notes.
next the comping has shuffle while establishing the middle of the chord in 8th notes.
Finally the melody is always the 3rds and sevenths while shuffle in 16th notes.

So to make it NOT sound like JAZZ we want to do all opposites of that
meaning we make the BASS middle and top melody all EACH establish a melodic sequence that interweave

we also make different timings in the melodies
have no register with a steady note division such as quarter notes etc.

all you have to do is make 3 melodies in 3 registers and have them intersect in different ways


so the progression part......

Gmaj A7 F#min, Amaj B7 G#min, Bmaj C#7 A#min,C#maj D#7 Cmin,D#maj F7 Dmin,Fma G7 Emin


is what all 3 melodies ADD up to be as a whole

have fun!

 

An alternative approach to using the 12 notes of chromatic scale in different way as I mentioned above.
is to think of each note as 1-12 and you can only pick 1 of them once during writing a part you cannot re-pick the same note in a song section more than once, Just randomly choose them based on ear but no repeats to they all have been picked once then start over.

 

@MMJ2017
"this is the C7 altered C root, D 9th, E 3rd, F# flat 5th, G# #5th, A# dom7th"
"each one of the notes equals the Dom7 Alt"

Whole tone scale generated chords written « alt » ? Hum …
To avoid confusion do not use a terminology that is not « commonly accepted throughout the world »
Fake books , methods , schools , musicians use the symbol « alt » to express the 5th’s and 9th’s
are being raised or flattened .
The 9th’s are not raised or flattened in whole tone harmony
Another big error is to called a flattened 7th (b7) « Dom 7th »
Nobody does this . « Dominant 7th » means what it means , the term is used to define a chord , not a chord tone .


Beside this what you write is of no interest …
You could write pages like this it still would be of no interest .

So :
Big theorical mistakes
Useless speech, like in the « pragmatic jazz theory you wrote » that is pure useless unpractical
stuff .

Your soul , ears and intellect are not connected together dude , that is the explanation of your
theoretical delirium . Sad for you.

« well, in JAZZ each instrument works a certain way the lower BASS region establishes the roots of the chords while being in quarter notes.
next the comping has shuffle while establishing the middle of the chord in 8th notes.
Finally the melody is always the 3rds and sevenths while shuffle in 16th notes. »
What stuff do you absorb dude ??? It seems to be super strong !!!
You are almost insane writing your delirium . Are you aware that you are fooling yourself .

 

^^

You don't understand jazz

Everything is a prelude to jazz. Just as jazz is a prelude to Le Musica Universalis, which, as we all know, is our Beneficent Mechanical Overlords, communing with us over the radio.

 

Evelyn, a modified dog, having undergone further modification, pondered the significance of short-person behavior in pedal-depressed panchromatic resonance and other highly ambient domains.

I hope that Frankie Z's brilliance answers your question. If it doesn't, then no real loss besides a few wasted seconds of your time. At 52 seconds the line is uttered.

 

retsoff119

Im going to post a reply for others to evaluate what you have said here. ( I have blocked you from now on troll)


If i spend 1 second of my life to google - altered chord and say go with first listing

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...64.psy-ab..1.13.1376.0..0i131k1.0.lWmzsXrMQE8

Source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_chord


Altered chord

In music, an altered chord, an example of alteration, is a chord with one or more notes from the diatonic scale replaced by a neighboring pitch in the chromatic scale. Thus the note must be a nonchord tone.

------------------------------------------------------------
now when we evaluate the G whole tone scale
G B D# F A C#

what do you know it has 2 tones which are altered.
this is a G9 #5,#11
----------------------------------------------------------
Next ......

if I now spend 1 second of my effort to google -dominant 7
and go with first listing
https://www.google.com/search?ei=uN...-ab..0.10.1028...0i67k1j0i131k1.0._EiclfaGmm0



The note G is the dominant degree of C major—its fifth note. When we arrange the notes of the C major scale in ascending pitch and use only these notes to build a seventh chord, and we start with G (not C), then the resulting chord contains the four notes G–B–D–F and is called G dominant seventh (G7). The note F is a minor seventh from G, and it is also called the dominant seventh with respect to G.

The note F is a minor seventh from G, and it is also called the dominant seventh with respect to G.

The note F is a minor seventh from G, and it is also called the dominant seventh
The note F is a minor seventh from G, and it is also called the DOMINANT 7th

Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_seventh_chord

retsoff119

I just demonstrated that wikipedia does this the first google search available.

I spent 2 seconds of my life ( you were not willing to spend)
showing that you were not willing to spend 2 seconds of your time to find out that you were misunderstanding things, you then preceded to get angry and hateful all because you were not willing to spend even 2 secs of effort to fix your misunderstandings.

You are not saying anything specifc and pointing to any actual instance of something at all, again not willing to put in any effort and use your ignorance to get hateful instead of being kind asking for help to understand and learn what you do not know yet.
How do I even respond to this? lol
I have no idea what you are going through, but focus on getting better


really too bad that you made the conscious decision to not put in any effort, next have your lack of knowledge make you hateful and demonstrably wrong, (causing me to block you)

If you instead had approached kindly just asking me questions ( or 1 sec of google) you could have realized your misunderstandings and if you had been kind i would have been willing to break any of it down as far as you wanted and needed to fathom it. sad case.

 

Last edited: Apr 6, 2018

starting with 12 note chromatic scale , then unzip into 2 whole tone scales then,
How to use whole tone scale to get dominant 7th altered. next how to use knowledge of the key.

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C

easiest to start with C major KEY zero sharps and flats
This means take the G whole tone scale

G A B C# D# F

This creates a altered Dominant7th chord

G is root, A is 9th ,B is 3rd C# is #11, D# is #5 F is 7th

Next we want to derive a Altered 7th for each note (whole tone is symmetrical)


G A B C# D# F G9 #5 #11

A B C# D# F G A9 #5 #11

B C# D# F G A B9 #5 #11

C# D# F G A B C#9 #5 #11

D# F G A B C# D#9 #5 #11

F G A B C# D# F9 #5 #11


Next because these all share the same notes and G9 #5 #11 resolves to C major (CEG,CEGB,CEGBD, ACEG,EGBD)

it can be said that ALL these Dom 7th chords each resolve to Cmaj.


BUT there is MORE
We can extend ALL the tones of the Dominant chords, as well as KEY information to use



G7 full G B D F A C E G# A# C# D# Altered ,ii V I DFAC GBDF CEGB
A7 Full AC#EGBDF# A# C D# F Altered , ii V I EGBD AC#EG DF#AC#
B7 Full BD#F#AC#EG# C D F G Altered, ii V I F#AC#E BD#F#A EG#BD#
C#7 Full C#FG#BD#F#A# D E G A Altered, ii V I G#BD#F# C#FG#B F#A#C#F
D#7 Full D#GA#C#FG#C E F# A B Altered ,ii V I A#C#FG# D#GA#C# G#CD#G
F7 Full FACD#GA#D F# G# B C# Altered, ii V I CD#GA# FACD# A#DFA

 

Last edited: Apr 6, 2018

No offense intended, but how does all this theory actually translate to writing a song that moves the listener beyond their mundane everyday existence?

 

hello sir, yes love to give example of that.


so say we take the info fro last comment and think of it like building a scaffolding for a house or building .

what we do is the theory part , our progression is what ALL the instruments amount to in any moment if time.

lets say quickly establish a chord progression to than make something with

okay we will take this info

Now based on this assemble a chord progression


lets go simple out of the gate for now.

we take B7 add its ii chord before it next resolve to G7#5 then to Cmaj9

F#AC#E BD#F#A GBD#F CEGBD


Now we have the scaffolding


now to make actual music out of it

take a tempo of 120 bpm for simplicity

first setup a bass instrument that connects the roots of our progression through the use of melody

F# F# A C# B B D# F# G G D#B C C G G then repeat it

next over top of that playing we setup say a piano or synth doing mid range melody

A E F# C# D# long F#B D# F long A E long B CB

next over top of those 2 we add a higher melody or what woul dbe vocals


E long F#G#AC# AD# long F F#A B long F Long E long BC long DB C long

now you can add notes in between to make connections to the next note they can be either chord tones or they can be grace notes, leading tones.

here is some examples with songs you know, how they were written, how the theory becomes real music


https://play.riffstation.com/chords-tabs/john-lennon-imagine/VOgFZfRVaww

https://play.riffstation.com/chords-tabs/ed-sheeran-perfect-official-music-video/2Vv-BfVoq4g

https://play.riffstation.com/chords-tabs/adele-hello/YQHsXMglC9A
https://play.riffstation.com/chords...remix-feat-cardi-b-official-video/LsoLEjrDogU

https://play.riffstation.com/chords-tabs/red-hot-chili-peppers-californication/YlUKcNNmywk

https://play.riffstation.com/chords-tabs/bob-marley-dont-worry-be-happy/L3HQMbQAWRc

https://play.riffstation.com/chords-tabs/johnny-cash-i-walk-the-line/Lq0fUa0vW_E

now here is a re harmonization of imagine by lennon using the theory to create a real new version of the song in fun way

the cool and fun part is that the knowledge opens every door for you to create anything you want at any time in any place in time!
you can do anything with it no matter how different or unique .

 

Last edited: Apr 6, 2018

Igor Stravinsky is now recorded in the annals of historical composers that have an almost legendary status.
Nearly every harmony teacher anyone goes to in any major school worldwide whether jazz, classical or contemporary, when teaching you how to harmonise for large ensembles will tell you not to write minor 9th intervals.
Stravinsky is notorious for doing just that.

So what is right and wrong?
That's like anyone saying this musician is better than that musician, this DAW is better than that DAW.... it's all opinion.
In saying that, to say jazz musicians do not know what they are doing is ambiguous. That's like saying rock musicians are not real musicians or any other musician that is not in an area that is pleasing to the ear.

Most jazz musicians can name and play over any chord structure that anyone can come up with. People confuse the "choice" to play the way they do with not knowing how to play what they want to hear. I'd no more say that rock musicians, Stravinsky, Mozart, Beyonce or any musician did not know what they were doing if I did not understand or like them than say Miles Davis knew nothing about jazz.

People forget music is an art and an expression, like Picasso, Michelangelo, Dali or any great artist - It is joy to the eyes that love it like music can be joy to the ears that hear it - or it can be the polar opposite.

 

There's absolutely no reason to keep this on topic.

 

Sorry guys! This is not me.

The reason I didn't post anything in these 2 pages till now is that I didn't have valuable and complementary materials to add. Fully appreciate your great and sincere INFO.

 

@foster911

Foster,
There are substantial amount of gold and platinum CD's from "A kind of Blue" by Miles Davis, Koln Concerts by Keith Jarrett and Dave Liebman CD's, that break nearly every supposed rule in existence, and have major 7ths over dominant 7th's, some in passing chromaticism or Minor II|V reharmonisation or a myriad of other potential substitutions, and some are stated clearly and some not, but they work because of how they played them with conviction.
As I mentioned somewhere else, the schooling system tells nearly every arranger while they are learning not to orchestrate minor 9th intervals but Stravinsky is historically documented in contemporary orchestral writing for doing just that. So anything is possible and valid if it can be actioned by recording it or documenting it.

I can see why anyone would get confused. When a musician gets to a point that they sing a line and then play it right back on their instrument or in reverse, this means they hear what they are playing. This does not mean everyone will like it but nonetheless they are playing what they hear.

So any rule can be broken, but most of the people that do this also knew the rules before they started to break them.
It does not mean you are wrong or they are. People like what they like, that is what makes us all different.
If a person decides to march to the beat of their own drum, they will find new things and break new boundaries. If this was not true, then the world would be full of sheep and Mozart, Jimi Hendrix, Pasteur, Michelangelo, DaVinci and all the groundbreakers in history would never have existed.

Miles Davis is quoted as saying: "There are no wrong notes, only bad musician's". Some people agree but it goes deeper than that. There is a set of rules and no style is exempt from them being broken, that is how new discoveries are made, otherwise there are boundaries that nobody will ever try to cross.
It's fine not to like or understand anything. It would take most musicians more than 5 lifetimes to learn everything they want to know about every area, style and genre that they might want to. We can only do the best we can with the time we are given.

 

foster has just had his eleventh birthday

 

I do not have a problem with anyone trying to help another person.
I do agree that possibly a link to where they could find it might have been better as a choice.
The only alarm bell I got was the G9#5#11 resolving to C major. The #5 is a strong leading tone to C minor and the Db is the tri-tone. No point saying more that might too much already.. but yes, a link with way more than any of us can post would have been a better choice. But he did try to help.
- Just trying to see something positive, nothing more, the intent was good even if the info was not completely correct.

 

The only alarm bell I got was the G9#5#11 resolving to C major. The #5 is a strong leading tone to C minor and the Db is the tri-tone.

More confusion ...

One word to all interested in theory :
We all have the opportunity to study and get good info these days !
Even for free .
One hint to avoid confusion :
Valuable info is shared everywhere in the world ! That is the border between delirium and real info .
Jazz theory is spread around the world in a way that is common to almost everyone .
Serious musicians and teachers are basicaly saying the same things over and over .That is cool because we need to agree about the basic tools
because this is just theory , just a tool .
This dude MMJ2017 s just stuck at level 1 , the basic "tool level" . That is why he needs to talk so much and give so much useless info .
A real useful approch must be much more concise and clear ...
All this info is useful only when the link with the ear is made ! Otherwise it is just useless info that will go in the way of music .
When the chords are going on quickly with fast tempo and harmonic moves musicians do not have time to think about theory stuff .
They should know it and play .
Some great players do not even know theory (more true in the past , but still true now) .
They just have a great ear and education . Take a guy like the great guitar player Bireli Lagrene :
He don't know so much about theory but you can analyse his solos using theory !

Theory came from analysis of the masters , not the othe way around .
I have been teaching music and theory and i still do .
I do it in a way that is always very close to the music , so that it becomes alive !

If some people are interested i could offer some of my time to post a few useful stuff on a other thread .
It will be the absolute opposite from the delirium of MMJ2017 :
Useful stuff that one can hear, and put to practice directly .
With links to a dedicated soundcloud, and real notes on imagehack .

There are a lots of people who already do some great job about this , free on youtube .
Useful stuff with examples that sound good .
I could also post some links about them if anyone are interested .
The approach is the exact opposite from what MMJ2017 writes :
Clear and concise examples ...

Check this guy out :listen, study, enjoy !
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmosj4iHBoB4JM6QWy_IjbAEeyvf1LCWb
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmosj4iHBoB4JwRx1JH2i_-ohG6_ddUK2
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmosj4iHBoB50pAc_FGgyUMreTEMMPKmB

No confusing stuff , normal it is a MUSICIAN that is there , not a illuminated delirium confused dude .
Quality VS useless Bullshit

 

Hej MMJ2017 , I have a challenge for you :
For each of your abstract theoratical writings, write and give an example in the real world :
Ex 2 or 4 bars in music notation (treble clef) and a link to soundcloud .
Whatever media you choose , you could also open a site to do this .
The format "music notation and audio" will speak for itself .
That will put you in the real world .
It does not need to be fancy or hip or whatever : Just clear and simple useful stuff .

What does the https://play.riffstation.com/chords-tabs/ed-sheeran-perfect-official-music-video/2Vv-BfVoq4g
Have to do with your delirium writings dude ???
-We have a completely diatonic (know what diatonic means dude ?) peace in Ab with degrees IMaj IVMaj VMaj Vsus4 and VImin .Inversions are not even written when they are played , too bad because inversions put life to very basic diatonic progressions , But only a musician could notice that , (not your case)
Write some bars showing your science dude (music notation and audio) .DO IT !
Show us c'mon ...

 

Something is only useless if it cannot be applied. Some people I have met can talk it and hear it, some can only hear some can only write it.