Multiband splitting : what is possible, reliable, how to test

Discussion in 'Mixing and Mastering' started by Skaunker, Oct 7, 2021.

  1. Skaunker

    Skaunker Member

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    Hello everyone, I hope you're all doing well.

    As mixing techniques and technology is advancing and evolving, the needs of multi band processing are just becoming a common occurrence. Not as much for compression, but rather divert from the initial use of tools and create our own creative approach of processing.

    I'm looking for some reliable utility for splitting bands with the most transparent, if not a perfect way, so I could rely on it as on creatives applications as critical ones (TDR or DMG quality-grade).

    I've always been using DDMF metaplugin as it sells itself as a perfect phase splitter and I never been annoyed with its sound. I trust the coding skills of the guy behind DDMF, as it has a good DSP reputation.

    It's just time consuming and tedious the more I use it.
    I've found an ableton rack roaming in gearspace here :

    https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=15162344&postcount=128
    Nice read btw, it kinds of try to reverse Oxford Inflator waveshaping effect

    But I don't know how accurate and how reliable this multi band splitter is, phase-wise.

    Googling did not gave me info on the quality of what I found (Bluecat, ect...), so I'm asking in here, if someone have a process to test this kind of splitters, or just a reference tool.

    It would be so nice if DDMF could simply publish a small crossover plug in so it wouldn't need to open the whole meta plugin stuff...

    Thank you guys :bow:

     
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  3. Skaunker

    Skaunker Member

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    Oooh shite... I just discovered Metaplugin is delivered with crossover vst... :woot::rofl:
    edit : it was too good to be true, the controls of the plugin are f*cked, can't create a proper ableton live device from it...
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
  4. Plainview

    Plainview Rock Star

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    What DAW do you use ?
     
  5. Skaunker

    Skaunker Member

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    I use Ableton Live
     
  6. Plainview

    Plainview Rock Star

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    do you have fabfilter pro q3 ?
     
  7. Obineg

    Obineg Platinum Record

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    beside the issues with VST plug-ins in general it is always a bit diffcult to work with multichannel plug-ins in the usual DAWs, what you have in mind is more something for max/max4life (where you have to create it on your own) or host programs such as bidule or audiomulch.

    plug-in solutions for hosting also exist of course; metaplug-in or patchwork will work, with bluetcat mb-7 the frequency splitter is already included.

    note that processing single bands and summing them again can break the best phaselinear frequency splitter´s properties, careful settings is the way to go. :)


    p.s.: ...which means that you would always start with a "parallel processing" setup where possible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
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  8. noise.maker

    noise.maker Producer

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    Kenny explainin how to create multiband compress and expand in reaper by splitting into 3 bands:
     
  9. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

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    Correct, but ->
     
  10. Ŧยχøя

    Ŧยχøя Audiosexual

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    There's little one couldn't do with MB-7..

    But if you need to take it further, just use a proper EQ like Pro-Q3 or EQuilibrium to filter/split the bands.
    Set them to Max Quality linear phase, and then sum them back into a Bus track..

    However you'll have to be careful not to inadvertently have the FX chain change the volume/drive/phase of the bands too much..
    Or yes, depending on what results you want/what you have in mind.
     
  11. Skaunker

    Skaunker Member

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    Nope...


    That was my fear, that some kind of processing could include phase shift when summing all the bands back. I mean it's normal if volume, delay nor phase is checked during processing, as it is expected to happen.
    But it's when phase shift sould not happen and occurs because of the splitted bands is what I'm avoiding.


    I thought about doing it with Equilibrium, the thing is, 3xEquilibriums full quality is quite a engament for the CPU... In the other hand, metaplugin is a hassle because opening menus and plugins inside a plugin but is really transparent for what I've done with it, and quasi-free in terms of CPU.

    The DDMF crossover vst broken controls is a real frustration.
     
  12. Plainview

    Plainview Rock Star

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    For anyone that have fabilter pro q3 here is a rack doing a linear phase crossover100% phase cancellation with the original
     
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  13. JMOUTTON

    JMOUTTON Rock Star

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    If you are using linear phase modes be careful of your crossover points and steepness when creating filters, pre- ringing is more annoying than phase shift.

    EQ will create some phase shift, that is how EQ works.

    If you don't understand that statement there is plenty of information on this and it does not need to be explained or debated here or we will never have big boy talks.

    What anyone should be more concerned about is if the enhancement from a processor outweighs the harm it will cause and if that even matters.
     
  14. Obineg

    Obineg Platinum Record

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    yeah, a simple - asymetric - linkwitz riley type of splitter already would give you a perfect situation for the "first splitting and then summing again" scenario.

    but as soon as you turn up the volume of one of these bands, the effect is kind of gone of course.

    otoh, if you turn up the highest of three bands for +12db and drive it through a saturation effect, you wont really hear the phase shifts for the filter. :) in practive it is mostly an issue if gain is all you do, i.e. in an PEQ.

    i didnt mean to cause or confirm any fears about "quality" and technical limits. put your focus on the workflow you like and see how far you come.
     
  15. Skaunker

    Skaunker Member

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    Ok, so perfect band splitting does not exist, because of filters inevitably causing phase shift (at crossover points I guess), no mater how well they are engineered. Ok. And of course LinPhase rings at crossovers.

    I ended finding a working solution atm, with some phase cancellation techniques, craves, and Live rack simple tinkering.

    Actually I was way more concerned about phase issues for mastering stage than going creative.
    Creativity is creativty, timbre is timbre, and there is are plenty of ways to obtain a satisfying sound for the ears.

    Mastering stage, I just do band-selective processing. Some excitement, or some dynamic treatment. It's always one band actually. But the solution ain't always accessible directly inside the plugin.

    It's just about avoiding phase shite around the crossover.

    And my little device works for the moment, let see if it holds over the longer term.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
  16. Skaunker

    Skaunker Member

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    Yeah, DDMF crossover is actually made with those kind of filters. It is maybe a standard in multiband splitting. :dunno:
     
  17. Obineg

    Obineg Platinum Record

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    Best Answer
    across the whole transition band.

    (the phase difference between adjacent channels is the problem, not the difference between the transition band and and the passband. :) )

    yeah, more or less. the butterworth (linkwitz riley == 2 butterworths) topology has the property that the phase shift is almost flat. this means it is easy to calculate and "matches" fine with other filters of opposite values. for example a highpass at 500 hz and a lowpass at 500 hz will "match" perfectly together.

    i am not so good in explaining this in english (and often had a hard time implementing such things) but this picture might give a bit of a clue. this is the phase response (not frequency response) of different filter types, all of which can be based on poles and zero filters:

    [​IMG]


    the phase shift of the butterworth looks almost like a frequency response, isnt it? and yes, it happens exactly in the same region as the frequency response, too.

    even FFT would not have a more flat passband than that. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
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  18. Skaunker

    Skaunker Member

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    @Obineg Thank you for the insightful response ! Did not get everything at first glance, but you shared here precious starting points :)
     
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