Mastering - Loudness Metering and Fibonacci

Discussion in 'Mixing and Mastering' started by LeviD, Jun 2, 2018.

  1. LeviD

    LeviD Member

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    This info is many years old to me now.
    I have only just decided to write of my observations.

    ---

    For those of you that are not familiar with the Fibonacci Sequence, here is the relative section of the sequence:

    1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21.

    ---

    1. (Television)

    "-23 LUFS Integrated (EBU)" plus 5 LU (Fibonacci) equals,
    "-18 LUFS Max. Short-term (EBU)" plus 3 LU (Fibonacci) equals,
    "-15 LUFS Max. Momentary (EBU)" plus 13 LU (Fibonacci) equal,
    "-2 dBFS True Peak (ITU)"

    = 21 (Fibonacci) Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR) at "-23 LUFS Integrated (EBU)" and,
    = 13 (Fibonacci) Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR) at "-15 LUFS Max. Momentary (EBU)"

    Note: the difference between "-23 LUFS Integrated (EBU)" and "-15 LUFS Max. Momentary (EBU)" is 8 LU (Fibonacci.)

    ---

    2. (Streaming)

    "-14 LUFS Integrated (EBU)" plus 5 LU (Fibonacci) equals,
    "-9 LUFS Max. Short-term (EBU)" plus 3 LU (Fibonacci) equals,
    "-6 LUFS Max. Momentary (EBU)" plus 5 LU (Fibonacci) equal,
    "-1 dBFS (Fibonacci) True Peak (EBU)"

    = 13 (Fibonacci) Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR) at "-14 LUFS Integrated (EBU)" and,
    = 8 (Fibonacci) Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR) at "-9 LUFS Short-term (EBU)" and,
    = 5 (Fibonacci) Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR) at "-6 LUFS Momentary (EBU)"

    Note: the difference between "-14 LUFS Integrated (EBU)" and "-6 LUFS Max. Momentary (EBU)" is 8 LU (Fibonacci.)

    ---

    3. (CD)

    "-9 LUFS Integrated (EBU)" plus 3 LU (Fibonacci) equals,
    "-6 LUFS Max. Short-term (EBU)" plus 2 LU (Fibonacci) equals,
    "-4 LUFS Max. Momentary (EBU)" plus 3 LU (Fibonacci) equals,
    "-1 dBFS (Fibonacci) True Peak (EBU)"

    = 8 (Fibonacci) Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR) at "-9 LUFS Integrated (EBU)" and,
    = 5 (Fibonacci) Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR) at "-6 LUFS Max. Short-term (EBU)"
    = 3 (Fibonacci) Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR) at "-4 LUFS Max. Momentary (EBU)"

    Note: the difference between "-9 LUFS Integrated (EBU)" and "-4 LUFS Max. Momentary (EBU)" is 5 LU (Fibonacci.)
    ---

    See how ya's go with that and hit me back with something, if you feel like it!
     
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  3. junh1024

    junh1024 Platinum Record

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    That is waaaaaaaay too loud. Also, instead making things "magical" by forcefully injecting different Fibonacci numbers , Here's what I aim for:

    -24 LUFS for TV/Film. +6..
    -18 LUFS for Music (pre-loudness wars, no dynamics smashing) +6..
    -12 LUFS for Music (post -loudness wars, with dynamics smashing)

    Very simple. How many different numbers did you use?
     
  4. LeviD

    LeviD Member

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    There's nothing magical about any of it. The only figure that has truly been "injected" is -2dBFS True Peak for Broadcast. It was taken from ITU/ATSC to make the Fibonacci Sequence work within the EBU measurement.

    -9LUFS Integrated is ridiculously loud, I agree. But people still master to levels capable of reaching -9LUFS Integrated. I assume you don't work for a studio? Sometimes clients simply do not care about the importance of dynamics in their music. Sometimes, they want to compete. In those situations, it is worth learning how to master loudly while making it sound as best as you possibly can. You may think we are in the "post loudness wars era," but we're not. Not yet at least.

    -18LUFS Integrated won't even compete with Streaming loudness standards so you're best to push that by at least 2dB, but even better to push by 4dB (which, from -18LUFS, will come out at -14LUFS.)

    Lastly, you want to compare numbers, or something like that? We are making different points, and you are not including Maximum Short-term numbers, Maximum Momentary numbers, True Peak numbers, nor Peak to Loudness Ratio numbers. Plus, I've written numbers for three different loudness settings. Therefore, it goes without saying that you will use less numbers than I have in our writings/Posts.
     
  5. Seedz

    Seedz Platinum Record

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    Its incredible how often that sequence crops up, in music, maths or otherwise
     
  6. junh1024

    junh1024 Platinum Record

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    That should be irrelevant as major streaming providers (e.g, YT https://audiosex.pro/threads/is-loudness-war-really-over.33093/ ) now normalize your songs to x LUFS so if you push it hotter, it won't make your songs louder, just more compressed.
     
  7. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    Am I missing something? AFAIK normalizing is for adjusting the peak level, not for compressing or limiting. And if they really compress or limit the tracks, why not doing it yourself so you have more control?
    What they are doing is lowering a track if the LUFS is too high.
     
  8. eXACT_Beats_

    eXACT_Beats_ Ultrasonic

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    I have seen people claim that "The War" ended years ago and that everyone is back on board with making music that is dynamically sound as opposed to basically turning the waveform into what I refer to as The Block, but it's simply not the case. I grew up in the nineties, so I saw the progression (well, degression,) of music that slowly took place with few people noticing except audiophiles and music geeks. You mentioned "....not yet, anyway," but I think that that might be a little too optimistic. It seems that in this era of music arriving to you at a seconds notice, people seem less concerned with the nuances of it and more concerned about cranking it up to 11, either to show off what they're listening to, or just to drown out the noise around them in their day to day life. And, yes, I do realize that is a generalization, but I know for a fact that when many friends of mine listen to music, it is more like filler, something to talk noise at them as opposed to something that they are invested in. If I run any of my beta mixes by people I become a miltant asshole who demands that they drop everything they are doing to actually listen to it, or listen to it when they have the time (or have to make the time,) to pay attention to it. It's the sad truth.
    As for the Fibonacci sequence, I had heard of its relation to music years ago from a guy a wroked with at a resort gig. He was (is,) a retired....thinker, I guess you'd call it, for NASA and, although I'm fairly well-read in all sorts of aspects of damn-near everything (to some degree, at least,) he was a phrontistery of knowledge. (His NASA career ended after about fifteen years due to a nervous breakdown, like brilliant people often have, and now, being a lover of music, sits sround smoking weed and listening to his records from the 60's and 70's.) He often would point out long, drawn-out diatribes on seemingly unrelated things and then tie them up together with some odd relationship they all had, so the Fibonacci sequence was tossed around in conversation often. I haven't seen the guy in some years, so this blurb on music was a nice kick-back to our conversations. Nice post.:wink:
     
  9. LeviD

    LeviD Member

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    I understand that. However, to my knowledge, -18 is still a few dB lower than YT, Spotify, etc. If I'm wrong about that, than I am wrong. I havent actually looked it up recently to be honest. But from what I remeber hearing in the reasonably recent past, the lowest loudness level for certain streaming services is -16. That's the only reason I say bump it up by 2 or 4 dB. Unless you're comfortable with either, 1. your masters being 2 or 4 dB lower than everyone else's on the same streaming services, or 2. having the streaming services apply their own limiting over your masters to ensure they are streamed at the same level as everyone else's music.
     
  10. LeviD

    LeviD Member

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    Thanks for your reply.

    I enjoy many styles of music. Just recently I took the time to listen to the latest Post Malone album. That album is an amazing example of "maximum loudness possible" still being relevant in the industry today. There are many songs on that album that have a crazy amount of distortion through them as a result of bad mastering decisions, the worst decision of all being to make the songs as loud as they are at the expense of the audio's integrity. But it just goes to show how some people (even professionals in the industry, including the artists themselves,) don't give a shit. They're so concerned with being loud that they will fuck up their own product in the name of competition. It's sad but still so very real and relevant in the industry.

    Have a listen to Post Malone's song featuring Nicki Minaj on his latest album release. There is a section in that song where Nicki's vocals are doubled (unison.) They're panned hard left and right. They are very distorted. It's a section where it is really easy to hear the distortion.
     
  11. junh1024

    junh1024 Platinum Record

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    #2 happens. So if you make your streaming master louder, it'll sound worse.

    https://www.masteringthemix.com/blo...dio-for-soundcloud-itunes-spotify-and-youtube

    • Spotify streams audio at around -14 LUFS. If a track has a loudness level of -8 LUFS, Spotify will decrease the volume of that track to -14 LUFS. If a track is -23 LUFS the volume will be increased to -14 LUFS. This is GREAT news.
    • Apple Music *Soundcheck On*
    • ~ 16 LUFS
    • YouTube
    • ~ 13 LUFS
    • Spotify
    • ~ 14 LUFS
    If I mix at -18LUFS, streaming services will simply increase the volume of my song. If they clip it or whatever, I'm happy as with -18LUFS, there's still a bit of headroom. I can also use my music for TV/film as it's still quite dynamic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  12. eXACT_Beats_

    eXACT_Beats_ Ultrasonic

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    Yeah, I listen to everything (even shit I don't like, like Post Malone....I don't mind Nicki because her old stuff is dope.) Even though I mostly make Hip Hop/Soul type cuts, not Trap/Pop-Rap/Billboard Hip Hop, I stay up on production styles; you can learn something from damn-near anything....even if it's what *not to do. That being said, if you're talking about the last part of her verse, if you listen to the 808 swells, they get increasingly distorted, but it's not due to volume/clipping, it gets heavier on the rise, as well as having a rapid, clipping-esque tone that underscores her vocals on the L/R pan, so I don't think her vocals are distorting, but it's difficult to tell whether or not the sub is in The Red. Either way, that song is just one more example of a track that is made to punch through your cars speakers to smack people in the face.
    As I said, I listen to everything, so my distaste for so much new "Hip Hop" doesn't stem entirely from some puritanical place that Oldheads reside, but from being an all-around musician and producer of all styles of music; I enjoy dynamics, and a lot of modern music is lacking that. I know it's an extreme example, but take that new Post Malone's "Ball With Me" track (we'll pretend for a second that Post Malone/Trap is Hip Hop like so many people claim,) and stick it next to Gang Starr's "Above The Clouds" track from '98 and check the dynamics and just the mix in general; the difference is staggering.
    And this isn't just modern "Hip Hop," even Lars (Metallica,) has said some years back that they "....never competed in the loudness war. Our albums just sound louder," which he later accidentally amended to, "....we actually stopped doing that for this new album," which was later confirmed by production assistants to be a just under being a complete audio block. :rofl:I have mixed Metal before, real metal, like Necrophagist/Black Dhalia Murder style shit, and metal is suppose to sound loud, but their are tricks to make your tracks sound like they are destroying your speakers, or that your right in front of their fullstacks, without actually making a flat, wall of sound. :headbang:
    Either way, as I said, you may be being too optimistic with the Loudness War dying out in the foreseeable future.
     
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