Mastering | Loudness | -14 LUFS | -8 LUFS | Why these numbers?

Discussion in 'Mixing and Mastering' started by LeviD, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. LeviD

    LeviD Member

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    I was thinking about how and why certain numbers are selected as loudness standards. Is it all based on trial and error? Is it all about what sounds best? Turns out the answer is, “No.” These numbers for loudness standards are technically based and selected.

    Please observe the images properly to understand what is going on:

    * Test Tone at 20 Hz (generally accepted as the lowest frequency audible to the human ear - not true, but whatever)

    * -14 LUFS Integrated (no Limiting)

    -14 LUFS.png

    * -8 LUFS Integrated (has 18 dB worth of Limiting applied with only 6 dB gained. -8 LUFS Integrated cannot be breached)

    -8 LUFS.png
     
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  3. Qiloo

    Qiloo Newbie

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    What's exactly your question or your point of discussion here?
    Seems interesting...
     
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  4. m9cao

    m9cao Producer

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    those standard was wrong but can makes those stupid engineer happy, they always pissing their shit called 'standard' to the clear world
     
  5. loCurnus

    loCurnus Member

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    LUV - most broadcast metering..... call wiki for it. or youtube.
     
  6. tzzsmk

    tzzsmk Platinum Record

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    LUFS metering is based on human-perceived loudness, it's a fairly complex algorithm, so I assume 20Hz being almost "off the scale" may produce pretty much useless readings
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    Agree

    :unsure:
     
  8. ordgen

    ordgen Newbie

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    That´s exact the point, LUFS works like RMS = how our ears perceive loudness, so if you are using a very low frequency you cannot expect to have the same result as using a high frequency. We cannot use simple math here, i is logarithmic.
     
  9. karnana

    karnana Member

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    any plugins that has it all with these sort things?
     
  10. tzzsmk

    tzzsmk Platinum Record

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    @karnana
    I usually use just Fabfilter Pro-L2 limiter which already shows this stuff,
    for just metering I also like Nugen VisLM a lot,
    and I will probably give a try to the free beta version of Youlean Loudness Meter :)
     
  11. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    I'd like to disagree humbly. Depending on the settings of my limiter, DMGAudio TrackLimit, (type of limiting, release time and ISP on or off) I get values from -13,6 to -6,6 LUFS with a threshold of -18dBFS and a sine wave at 20Hz with peak at 0,0dBFS.
     
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  12. Kwissbeats

    Kwissbeats Rock Star

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    the loudness standards is non existent.

    So for the sake of conversation, note what kind of loudness agreement you are talking about. since nothing is unanimous agreed upon and as of now nothing implies it is ever going to happen.
     
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  13. Darkkman

    Darkkman Member

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    There are loudness standards in broadcasting world (EBU R128 which is -23 LUFS/LUKS Integrated along with a whole other batch of criteria e.g. true peak and momentary loudness) however not a "standard" as such within commercial music world. There are loudness implications e.g. "loudness normalisation" for sites such as YouTube, Spotify, Tidal etc which implement something similar to LUFS. These vary between -12 and -16 so while there may not be a "standard" many people target -14 LUFS so music will playback without any dynamic compromise. These levels have been created as a good balance between loudness and dynamics (PLR or DR) for most commercial music (folk and classical will likely be higher e.g. -18, -20 as they are generally more dynamic). Don't know why -8 has been referenced but -14 is a target area although the best way to test is if it sounds good to you, load it onto YT and see what happens and compare to other tracks... My 2 cents!

    If you just play a tone through this is not relevant as there are no dynamics and as has already been mentioned the measurement is based on how the human ear perceives loudness 20Hz or 20kHz is not going to register the same as 1 kHz (even of the level shows as the same)
     
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  14. turbo

    turbo Member

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    Never seen a loudness meter shows the same value
     
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  15. tzzsmk

    tzzsmk Platinum Record

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    that's because loudness metering (not measuring) is time-dependant,
    basically if you play something and open up loudness metering tool, it does some time-based measuring (of various time durations, usually desribed as short-term, long-term, programme etc..) - it's literally impossible to repeat the process exactly (you play same thing, but maybe open loudness metering tool slightly later, forget to reset it or whatever...)

    on the other hand, if you'd do loudness analysis of entire track (using something like SWS Loudness extension in Reaper, loudness scan in Sonoris DDP Creator, Adobe Audition etc..) it will always provide exact same result because it will analyze exact same source item of exact same length

    (sorry if my words are a bit confusing, english isn't my native language)
     
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  16. LeviD

    LeviD Member

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    Ahhh, is that in multiband mode? Or wideband? As I am only using the True Peak Limiter which is wideband.
     
  17. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    Singleband, of course, like yours.
     
  18. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    With the exception of one platform (could be Tidal, not sure), the dynamics are never compromised. They just change the volume, so to speak, they lower the whole track.

    LUFS is not connected to dynamics.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  19. LeviD

    LeviD Member

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    Is your "dynamics" control set to 0% or 100%? I think 100% would have it behave like a conventional Limiter.

    I'm going to have a play with that Limiter later today.
     
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  20. No Avenger

    No Avenger Audiosexual

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    Sorry, didn't get that.

    Yep, good idea, try it yourself.
     
  21. meow

    meow Noisemaker

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    I want the loudness of the 80's. I already selected a few favorited albums, but am still not sure how all of this works. I use the Youlean meter, thinking it gives good values. So this conversation is super interesting.
     
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