I lolled so hard. Ultrasound, here I come!

Thank you!

 

In Bob Katz's book on mastering they do some very revealling tests regarding high sample rates. They compared rates like 44.1 to 96 and higher. They built the best converters in the world to do it as well. They had the best ears in the business listening and in the end Bob concluded that there was no point in going above 50Khz sample rate! No one could really tell the difference. But 48Khz is a nice sample rate and is closer to 50K Hz. That is why 48 is not a bad idea especially if there is any chance your music is going to end up on TV or DVD etc.

Higher bit depths are much more important than higher sampling rates.

 

PSP-PULTEQ DOES THE TRICK!!! btw, this is not a dumb question, some people don't understand that in digital world there is a lot of high frequencies that are very unpleasant, anyway i hope this helps!!!

 

@zukunft:

YES! Definnitely, we ALWAYS have LOTS of thing to improve. And learning is my way of life; seriously... there's nothing more exciting for me.

And, of course, I was not laughing at the original question, BUT I must admit I was shocked. Because, not only after 30+ years of career in this business (with, literally, tons of magazines and books read and lots of records released) no one asked me such a question (not even the hundreds of people I've been teaching in schools). I guess mainly because, in the beginning, it sounds "strange". I'm not laughing at it, but I'm still waiting for a LOGICAL explanation of why someone would want to "change the level of a frequency band" (<<<--- this is the exact definition of EQ) which is NOt audible...

Still waiting...

Best wishes to *ALL* of you!

 

I think it's pretty clear that the threadstarter intentionally doesn't answer to our question.

Quite an arrogant attitude, if you ask me.
"Help me to achieve this or that, but I don't tell you why, I won't share my secret knowledge with you "

 

@zukunft:

I agree with your ideas about Sampling Rates, and I would add that a higher resolution than 16bit is desireable, specially in multitrack environments, where MANY tracks are mixed together. Maybe the right way to choose nowadays is 24/96KHz (or 24/48KHz). I agree with Bob Katz about SRs. Anyone familiar with the exact way ADD/DA converters work (mainly in the ultra high freqs range) knows that a SR of 192KHz is only used by those who SAY they can hear the difference. Well, the truth is that they just ***SAY*** so.

A very good friend of mine went to an audiophile shop recently and forced the man at the shop to perform a BLIND test on 4 high end amplifiers... The seller at the shop was NOT capable of identifying which was the more expensive one [exactly the one he was telling 10 minutes before that had a "clearly superior sound"]. In fact he was NOT capable of distinguishing between ANY of all all 4 [he was failing over and over], although he said he would before.

There are too many urban myths about audio, believe me... Technology goes on and on, but OUR EARS are the real limit.

 

Okay, to finally answer the question (I didn't answer it before not to keep you "in dark" but I didn't know how to put it).

I believe that the human ear is capable of hearing far beyond 20kHz. The problem is that the brain cannot process that kind of bandwidth on conscious level, however it should be able to process it in deeper Alpha and Theta states. There were some studies which proves that but it's not important now.

Anyway I'm working on project that include subliminal messages and I wanted to properly equalize the acoustic guitar so that it won't interfere with them, yet the harmonics will remain there (no low-pass). The messages consists of both monologue and sine waves (multiples of Schumann's resonance frequencies) amplitude modulated to 25.67kHz (I can't say exactly). This audio should put the listerer first to deep Alpha or Theta by two sine waves with respective offset (in standard 10-20000Hz spectrum) and then move beyond 20kHz.

Now to put some light on recent replies:

jaco
There are definitely headphones that will allow you to listen beyond 20kHz. I own Superlux HD-660 with response 10-30000Hz and there were some Sennheisers which goes up to 50kHz. Amplifiers also work beyond 20kHz even if the sticker on it clearly say 20-20000Hz

AudioTiger
There is definitely music beyond 20kHz. *yes*
Go and record acoustic guitar with pickup (not with microphones) on 24/96 recorder. Now examine the spectrum with some decent analyzer - it goes even beyond 40kHz. If you don't believe, slow down this recording to 50% speed and you can clearly hear, that the supersonic harmonics are still a part of the guitar's sound.
I have no problems hearing below 20Hz down to 9Hz and I'm pretty sure that some people also hear in this range. That's band used for thunder effects by movie makers and that's why LFEs in home theaters are capable of working in this range.

Nevertheless I agree that in standard environment, bit depth is more important that sample rate. BTW, I even wanted to write article titled "When 24bit is not enough" at one time.


Sinewave
I always process the audio mainly in 50-21000Hz, yet I also work with freqs outside the "hearable" spectrum. Why?
Because even if they can't be heard (by humans) it doesn't mean they do nothing else to the atmosphere or pressure. Besides there are situations where humans are not only listeners of your music.


---
PS:
Isn't that weird that most human products are limited to human's senses?

Video cameras and digital cameras (not the special ones) are capable of capturing image only in 400-800THz which is the range of visible light perceived by humans

Microphones, speakers, monitors, interfaces and effects are built to work in the range of 20-20000Hz. If they work beyond that, noone's concerned, because NO HUMAN COULD HEAR IT.


Yet the nature doesn't do any kind of lowpass, highpass or bandpass on its sounds and light (in its pure form, not talking about transmitting sound&light over distances). It doesn't say to birds that they can sing only in the range of 20-20000Hz just because there are 7 bilion people on the planet whose senses are incapable of hearing anything else at conscious level.

Anyone can tell the difference between live concert and recording. I mean live concert in a small room where amplifiers and other audio gear is not necessary. But music is not about telling the difference (between 24/48 and 24/192), it's about overall impression and I just want to keep it complete.

 

@AudioTiger

At no time am questioning your answers.
I think my position is like yours. I never had to equalize any sound at 40 khz. I am surprised a little, but that's why I like to research and find information, try and enjoy what I do. The limits are your ears, yes.
I also think that when the audio cards began recording in 192-384 khz its only pure marketing. Need to get something new to sell, it is not necessary, and as you say people say they notice a difference, but they say to say ...

Now change the subject a bit, why new plugins us Oversampling?

The Glue
Voxengo
DiscoDSP Discovery
U-HE ACE
...

Why multiply the working frequency x2 x4 x8 if the end if only hear 20 khz?
Sometimes the use oversampling improves some processes, sometimes not necessary. Another thing is that at the end of all this we are able to tell the difference ...

And speaking of hardware.
Clavia Nord Lead 2X use high-resolution, low-noise 24-bit DACs running at 96khz.
Adam Spearkers - A8x work at 38 Hz - 50 kHz.

I do not argue with you, I think it is interesting.

 

Music or sound is heard not only with the ears, also noticed the body. this is called vibration.
For this reason, you do not hear does not mean it does not exist.

Hi Andrew, interesting your explain about subliminal messages and Schumann's resonance frequencies.

Long time ago I try something similar.
Putting images on 20-22khz. (seen on sonograph only)
Today beside making musikc ,I'm researching/working on sound healing and music therapy.

Remember one thing, at quantum level. we are all vibration.

 

@zukunft:

Yes, definitely, the more or higher no-matter-what (resolution, frequency) the better. Just because it's technically better. Even if we are not supposed to hear it. Just in case... ;)

Oversampling is mainly used to "draw" the waveform better and to minimize errors, that is; to achieve a more accurate internal process, not because of humans.

@Andrew:

Glad you finally popped up and cleared things a bit! We all were a bit nervous! (you started an earthquake here, you know??? :P).

About what you just said:

1) "the human ear is capable of hearing far beyond 20kHz" <--- Nope! It's all about the hearing system itself, not about the brain. I'll say it a bit technically [please, forgive my bad english; I am NOT an english native!]: inside the ear, there is an enclosure with thousands of little "hairs" which are submerged on a liquid. Each of these is specialized on a particular frequency range; for instance, some of them are capable of vibrating or moving inside the liquid with very high frequencies [yes, the ones that "die" soon, making the loss of highs from about 25/30 years of age on]. BUT the maximum frequency band these are capable of reacting to is around 20KHz. I did a serious hearing test when I was 21 (I had already started DJing and as I was also producing music, I was worried about my ears) and I could hear upto 21KHz+ (at a VERY low level, though). NOW, at 48, I haven't noticed anything special and my music/sound abilities and accuracy at detecting little details inside a full mix are much better but I'm absolutely sure, just because of my age, that I can't hear higher than, possibly, 16KHz. Conclusion: It's about the ears themselves, not the brain (or ALSO the brain, I don't know).

2) If you want to work with subliminal information inside the music I suggest you make a little research on brainwaves and how to embed them inside the music. These frequencies (alpha, theta, etc) are SUBSONIC and you may modulate your music with them to "force" the listener to A GIVEN STATE OF MIND. Note that this only works in binaural mode (i.e. headphones). And YES, this seems to be scientifically proved...

3) Which is the final OUTPUT format you are going to use for that music you do??? If it's a standard AudioCD or FM Radio or even a DVD, all this 40KHz EQ and any work you do in the higher non-audible range WILL DISAPPEAR. In order to keep it in full you must use 96KHz sampling rate. Where are you going to play this???. In your studio???. Are your loudspeakers capable of playing 40KHz??? Think of it...

My best wishes to YOU ALL!!!

(Interesting thread, btw)

 

have you guys not heard that by boosting the 41 kHZ you can hear god?

just kidding

+1 for HarmoniEQ by Voxengo :D link

 

Totally agree with AudioTiger.

Important what's the final output or how you apply the sound to the person.
The best way to apply binaural beats it's using headphone.

> 40 Hz Gamma waves Higher mental activity, including perception, problem solving, fear, and consciousness
13–39 Hz Beta waves Active, busy or anxious thinking and active concentration, arousal, cognition, and or paranoia
7–13 Hz Alpha waves Relaxation (while awake), pre-sleep and pre-wake drowsiness, REM sleep, Dreams
4–7 Hz Theta waves deep meditation/relaxation, NREM sleep
< 4 Hz Delta waves Deep dreamless sleep, loss of body awareness

also related:
Isochronic tones

If you need more info, i can share.
There are many programs to make binaural beats.

 

i can think of a couple of possible reasons easily.
DSD recorders can record and playback from 20hz to 100khz.
Or... oceanic recordings (ie - underwater, whale song etc)
most of the underwater microphones i have come across go up to 40khz at least.

Not that i would personally have use for either situation, just putting it out there that people and situations exist where a person will require more than the normal.

 

Hi, new EQ for boosting at 40 khz by shelf filter
.
AIR BAND®
Boost only shelf at 2.5 kHz, 5 kHz, 10 kHz, 20 kHz, or 40 kHz.
The frequencies below the shelf peaks are also affected due to the transitional slope.
AIR GAIN
Gain control for the AIR BAND
(+15 dB)
2.5 kHz
Fixed boost and cut shelf
(+15 dB, -4.5 dB)
650 Hz
Fixed boost and cut bell
(+15 dB, -4.5 dB)
160 Hz
Fixed boost and cut bell
(+15 dB, -4.5 dB)
40 Hz
Fixed boost and cut bell
(+15 dB, -4.5 dB)
SUB (10 Hz)
Fixed boost and cut bell
(+15 dB, -4.5 dB)
PEAK
Red LED starts to illuminate when digital signals clip.
SIGNAL
Green LED indicates audio signal presence.
IN/OUT
Engages and disengages EQ

Maag EQ4
released by ST3RE0.

 

@zukunft:

Yes. I was, looooong ago, doing a bit of research with an ealier version of the good ol' Cool Edit 96. I remember it had a very nice explanation of BrainWaves and how to put them in you audio by modulating it. It even explained how to create relaxing sessions of 20 or 30 minutes of music for studying, concentration, relaxation, etc. ***VERY*** interesting, indeed. This was around year 98 or so (my tests, I mean) and I tried to redo them about 3 years ago. I found the software, but not the PDF manual... but I KNOW I have it in one of my 30+ hard disks...

Very intesting, also, what you explained here

-----

UPDATE:

Oh YES! I saw the Maag EQ4 today... LOL!

 

Interesting thread.

Thanks for explaining, Andrew.

Here is something for you guys, to not just speak about this things in theory.
Test yourself, which frequencies you can hear, or can not hear:

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencycheckhigh.php

Warning: don't make this test, if you are not ready to accept a maybe disillusioning result

(Don't ask a question, if you can't live with the answer)

 

try "Pro Q" from fabfilter, it has a 10hz to 30khz freq range ;)

 

I own 3 pairs of ultrasone headphones. My newest model, the pro 2900's have a frequency range that goes from 6-42,000 Hz

I dont mix or eq that high though

 

Plugin Alliance Maag EQ4

Has an incredible Air Band - 40kHz

I think you'll like it.

It's available to try on AudioZ




EDIT: Ooops, just noticed the reply up there. Didn't read the thread properly. Apologies.

Anyway +1 for Maag EQ4

 

This topic has come up again and again for years. The analog guys generally knew about the importance of sound +20kHz, but with the digital takeover, much of this arcane knowledge is becoming lost.
I'd like to point to a thread from recording.org: http://recording.org/pro-audio-gear/2121-why-even-24-96-digital-sucks.html

Code:

The following is an excerpt from the much talked about On Line Chat with Mr. Rupert Neve, Fletcher of Mercenary Audio fame moderating.....(as it pertains to this thread).

Fletcher: "There has been some measure of debate about bandwidth including frequencies above 20kHz, can we hear them, do they make a difference, etc.?"

Rupert: "OK, Fletch, pin your ears back...back in 1977, just after I had sold the company,
George Martin called me to say that Air Studios had taken delivery of a Neve Console which did not seem to be giving satisfaction to Geoff Emmerick.
In fact, he said that Geoff is unhappy.... engineers from the company, bear in mind that at this point I was not primarily involved,
had visited the studio and reported that nothing was wrong. They said that the customer is mad and that the problem will go away if we ignore it long enough.

Well I visited the studio and after careful listening with Geoff, I agreed with him that three panels on this 48 panel console sounded slightly different.
We discovered that there was a 3 dB peak at 54kHz Geoff's golden ears had perceived that there was a difference. We found that 3 transformers had been
incorrectly wired and it was a matter of minutes to correct this. After which Geoff was happy. And I mean that he relaxed and there was a big smile on his face.

As you can imagine a lot of theories were put forward, but even today I couldn't tell you how an experienced listener can perceive frequencies of the normal range of hearing.
And following on from this, I was visiting Japan and was invited to the laboratories of
Professor Oohashi He had discovered that when filters were applied to an audio signal
cutting off frequencies of 20 kHz, the brain started to emit electric signals which can be
measured and quantified

These signals were at the frequencies and of the pattern which are associated with
frustration and anger. Clearly we discussed this at some length and I also would forward the idea that any frequencies which were not part of the original music,
such as quantisizing noise produced by compact discs and other digital sources, also produced similar brain Waves."