@MMJ2017
Because MMJ for a start - if you want to speak directly to someone generally you use the @ sign before their name which I did with Foster.
I replied to Foster because he went into playing and your thread is theory.
I have negated replying until now because my conversation was with Foster to stay on track even though I do not disagree.

I am a player of 40 years with many recordings to support it.
You are a theorist.

Stay on theory MMJ unless you want to go into practice because Heavy metal is NOT Jazz and unless you have something in audio of YOUR OWN in jazz - Stay on theory.
To repeat - My reply was to Foster. It would have stayed on two comments but you are obviously determined to get a reply.

Stay on track please and put up some audio or go back to theory, all of which I knew 40 years ago.
Thank you.

 

what do you mean by this?
what method do you have available to think inside of your thoughts about me and have it match the actual human being which exists with so limited information about me available to you?

for instance if I took the same approach and just based on the information I could find, would I be able to form in my thoughts a image of you which matched the actual being which exists?
this is why i believe in skipping that use of thought which compartmentalizes a human being into a fictional thought character then using reward or punishment in communication with the actual being which is alive, based on the fictional thought image i have created in thought.
the alternative i use and propose is a thought process which focuses on observation alone.

for a FULL explanation anyone can read my thread about this topic.
https://audiosex.pro/threads/what-i...hought-process-how-it-applies-to-music.33827/

from the thread.....

-------------------------------

again what an unusual thought process you make the decision to use here. (observation)
I cannot remember a moment which i communicated that heavy metal was jazz. maybe someone can quote me saying that sentence in the many threads i have said things inside of.
Just curious why you did not quote an actual thing i have said IF you are interested at all in speaking about what i have said.( or is it that from your perspective if a person enjoys and makes many genres that somehow weakens them musically?)

this second portion about unless I have something in audio of MY OWN jazz stay on theory.

so you make a comment saying this.

SO first of all, Even though you were speaking to foster. ( doesthe logic change depending on the person?)

I asked you why, in a moment of time which your decision was to talk about jazz in form of comment, the content of your comment was so say that every great player , plays the music instead of talking about it, you said this at the very moment which you chose to talk about it and not play.

my question was related to asking do you hold yourself to this logic that you had to break just to even communicate it?

and since you broke the logic of it by "talking" in form of commenting on a thread ( as opposed to playing)
does this not weaken the argument? or is it just that you hold yourself to a different standard than the logic of the content which you just shared?

Just standard conversation my friend.

next, about this portion of your comment where you change the subject.

If you think that me making a jazz song right now with specific criteria which i ask you specifically select.
I will create the music and time stamp the process posting it every step of the way like i did before.(with foster making a electronica song in "his" genre)
I will do this every day if you feel it has some ability to improve the quality of the conversations and affect the validity of the propositions in my comments.

would me doing those actions everyday and making specific music based on every user that exists here selecting the criteria, in any way at all have some connection to specific propositions in the form of text comments that i make?
from my understanding
the content of a proposition stands of fails based on if it is accurate with reality or false.

if Hitler says E=mc2 does it become wrong?
in this instance, the content is refferring to energy in the universe.
if the garbage man makes the proposition or donald trump, the content determines if it is valid or false. not the person presenting it.

 

Last edited: Jun 6, 2018

@MMJ - there is an exception to every rule - here is a 4 year old

A 4 year old can learn not to interrupt. I wasn't speaking to you and won't again. Foster was talking of playing. You had a bone to pick.
Just stick to your topic - Theory.
I actually am musically really busy which is why I am hardly on here.

 

Good! (Let us see if you can stick to your word and your own advice...)

 

Last edited: Jun 6, 2018

@BaSsDuDe and @retsoff119 as you know there are millions of rules and guidelines for memorization. Some of them can be remembered and applied well during the improvisation and some not. MMJ's methods are mostly for memorization.

Maybe he thinks that by unifying those various guidelines in the frame of his invented formulas, he would be able to make deep music in a fast manner (without trial and error) but he should consider that unification is impossible. If he gets that, maybe he would subscribe to your views.

Following unification is a natural consequence for people that don't believe much in playing. No one in the history has been able to do that.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2018

@foster911 - It's common sense really. a person can play what they teach or they cannot.
Some people are born with it. It';'s not common but it happens. Playing is the aim. Anyone can write a novel, a book or a theory. That's scholastic education.
Anyone that is truly any good knows a mix of both is essential.
Oh well, you can lead a horse to water ....

 

But you can’t make them read.

 

you came to my thread and was speaking ,so i spoke to you. is that hard to imagine?

also you coming here and making demands of me inside of my own thread?

do you think that I am not busy?(or others)
you jump from random thought to random thought

I was speaking to you , is that hard to fathom given you came to my thread?
i simply asked you some questions direct to the content of your comments.
I never asked you anything you did not FIRST bring up.
you seemingly have this notion that if a person puts any effort onto the aspect of music knowledge
they are a "theorist" and lacking' some other aspect.
but in reality if a person ignored theory and focused on everything else THAT would be the "lack""
my position is to put some time and effort into "theory" or as i like to say "how music actually works"
I don't believe in putting MORE effort into it than any other aspect of music.
I believe in putting EQUAL effort into each aspect of music.
(just like I believe in putting equal effort into EACH genre as well.

although none of this ties into what i originally asked you about. i simply asked you to expand upon your original comments and notions expressed within them and you just randomly jump around and spend no time on the specific content you brought up.
what if i used your own thought process and came up with calling you a" Impulsivist." and to continue being impulsive don't try to do anything else. just keep it to being impulsive will ya?

 

Last edited: Jun 6, 2018

okay so we learned you been playing for 40 years. check
next we learned that ANYONE can write a book or novel. CHECK
my only remaining question is
why you specifically make the decision to comment in the way that you do, instead of sharing your 40 years of knowledge with people to help them?
you are busy but have enought ime to comment the things you have, why not comment some "better" version of "how jazz works"? (better than I do, I'm not even 40 years old yet)
Surely you could do what "anyone" does, and write a thread explaining how jazz knowledge works?
not only that but you add your 40 years of knowledge to what "anyone" can do and you have the best jazz info possible right?
please share some of it .
do a version that demolishes what I have shared.
for instance take the topic of


"combining arpeggios, with scale tones and grace notes in a ii V I)

take this subtopic and share information that will make what I have shared embarrassing for me and look like a tool.

 

• Playing is not the aim. Making music is.
• If everybody can write a novel, a book, or a theory then nobody can. (A monkey could write something, but it wouldn't make sense. You and foster are a living proof of this)

Again, thanks @MMJ2017 , I've been making music for so many years and yet your posts mean a lot. Rock on dude.

 

@MMJ2017 I am sorry for these people. Do not ever mind for that. As a professional progressive metal guitarist and composer, and a shredder,
I would say as soon as you want to play serious complex stuff you should learn and use the music theory, especially Jazz, as the Jazz theory is a complete theory which includes all of the theory back to the classical era.

I do not think guys here, even have an album from themselves

 

Last edited: Jun 7, 2018

To stay on topic :
Advice and remarks to non jazz musicians (i have already pointed out these errors) :
-Piano roll is not OK to write chords , use the staff , period .
-Letters are not OK to write lines , melodies or whatever , letters are appropriate to write chords symbols .Use the staff for lines and melodies
-Using sharp (#) when descending is not OK , common usage is using sharp (#) when going up , flat (b) when going down .
-The symbol "alt" used in a jazz context means that the 5ths and 9ths are altered ,( It's a convention used in fakebooks , jazz harmony text , music schools and teachers) .You do not write "alt" for a G 9 #5 b5 for ex . (If you want to be precise you can specify "whole tone" for this sound)

That was for the "technical side" .
From another point of view :

If someone has ears , "musical ears" and listen to bassdude and the exemples that bassdude shared on this site , the right attitude
is : Listen ,respect , and learn .
No alternative ...
If you do not hear the quality and musical level of his music , than ...
Too bad for you guys , go back to EDM , that's OK , but please don't argue about things that are sooooooo much above your level ,
you are just making fool of yourselves .

 

Last edited: Jun 7, 2018

Piano Roll is perfectly OK. Everybody uses it. Even in the process of making a jazzish tune. Wake up this is 2018.

Letters for melodies can be confusing with harmonic context, I'll give you that.

Nope, many lead sheets and theory books use the key scale (or scaleS in case of modulation) sharps and/or flats without regard for asscending/descending.

No. 7alt means "choose whatever alteration suits you, preferably from the altered dominant scale aka superlocrian aka melminor 7th mode". This is Jazz 101 dude.

Oh the joys of projection.

 

You are right , music is written with piano rolls , musiciens read piano rolls on the bandstand . You are a serious person who knows about reality of the music world .

In this case it's not the "keyscale" but alterations we talk about . see MMJ example :

descending from G

G F# F E D# D C# C B A# A G# G : going down with sharp , no key here

Absolutely agree with that , "alt" is referring to the "altered scale" , "superlocrian" , "7th mode of melodic minor" , Aebersold call it "dim whole tone" etc ...
The formula is :
1 , b2,b3, 3(dim 4th if spelled from the 7th mode of mel minor) b5,b6 ,7th :
B C D Eb F G A = B7alt . If the 9th's are unaltered then you do not write the "alt" symbol . But go ahead do what you want .

 

Last edited: Jun 7, 2018

Just a simple question :
What's the relation between Ab7 b9 #9 #11 b13 and D7 9 #11 13 . ?
(Just to check theory level of guys that can only insults and go off topic , this does not have anything to do with talent .

I have noticed that it is impossible to add any technical contribution on this MMJ thread .
What i was writing is a contribution .
Your answer to my contribution :

Talking about musical mistakes and getting this kind of comment ? Can't do better ?
No other arguments ? Well , not much then , indeed .

 

You go and explain that to Kenny Barron who regularly voices 7alt chords as 9#11 (natural 9 that is) and 13#11 (natural 13). Or McCoy who uses both 11 and #11 when voicing a 7alt.

Because that's what 7alt is about in fine, it means "now is a good opportunity to be creative dude (and quit ranting about piano rolls)"

 

Wow, if you're seriously referring to subV while thinking you actually know something better than anyone on this thread, I kinda feel embarrassed for you...

 

Don't mix up everything :
9 #11 13 is commonly referring as "Lydian b7" .4th Mode of melodic minor . Formula is :
1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6,b7 : G A B C# D E F = G 7 (9, #11, 13)
It is easy to check this online .
"Alt" is a commonly accepted and logic way to say to player that the 5th's and 9th's are altered .
Instead of arguing with me , check it out : Online , books , schools , teachers ...

But all of this is nothing really if not used in context , just theory and formulas .
Dan Haerle has great stuff on his home page all of you guys can go the and get some valable insights .
I learned all of this 40 years ago , like bassdude so i have some distance and expérience with
But instead of learning you want to fight and argue , too bad ...

 

OK, you answered , just checking don't be embarrassed...

Just one thing to be correct :

The right answer was :

All common notes
Ab 7 b9 #9 #11 b13 = All notes of Ab super Locrian (Alt) :
G# A B C D E F# (written enharmonically to avoid too many b's) G# super locrian

D7 9 #11 13 = all notes of D Lydian b7 :
D E F# G# A B C
That was the thing to notice (all notes in common). More subtle than standard "Tritone sub" .
I do not care about knowing more than any one here , that is childish, i leave this to you .
It is how people use knowledge that counts , not knowing more than EDM makers and producers .

Another thing , you wrote : " Or McCoy who uses both 11 and #11 when voicing a 7alt"
Please specify the voicing . A Master like Mc Coy could make everything sound , but seriously
i have not heard such a thing in Mc Coy's playing .
Any how that is interesting because it implies 2 consecutive half steps :
-One between the maj 3rd and the 11th , and another half steps between the 11th and the #11 .
This (consecutive half steps in a scale) has a tendency to destroys tonality .
But depending on the spacing of the voicing , such things can be done : Lennie Tristano
could voice maj 7th chords and add a b9 on man 7th Chord ! Key word in this case is "spacing"
that can make harsh souding acceptable . Any how this is very advanced stuff , most jazz
harmony is taught using Modes of Maj scale , Harmonic minor scale , melodic minor scale
and their modes, than Diminished scale : Whole Half , and its reverse : Half Whole to use
on b9, #9 #11 and Natural 13th chord : Typical chord sound of "Pools" By Don Grolnick ,
A color that has its own sound . Than Whole tone scale , and the augmented scale
(Min3rd , half step ,Min3rd , half step etc)
Those scales are is commonly taught in jazz education : Schools books teachers etc .
Too bad Harmonic Major and its modes is neglected because great sounds and voicings can be made
with it .
But once again this is just theory ... Some people might know a lot , some not and it is what you do with it that is important

 

Last edited: Jun 8, 2018

I still didn't get my answers.

1- How does the player think and practice during the improvisation when he doesn't have the harmonic structure or any written sheet in his hands? The same for the maker.

2- How do they apply the thousands of different theories to their improvised music on the fly? Do they select them randomly or think like a super computer in a fraction of second?

3- How do they find out that they've selected the best rule? What's the best rule?

4- Do all of the Jazz players and makers rationalize and justify their selections the same?

Please for God's sake don't make fun of me me and give very clear answers. Please!!!