Interesting trick for mic'ing guitars.

Discussion in 'Guitars' started by dragonhill, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. superliquidsunshine

    superliquidsunshine Audiosexual

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    If I were a religious man, concerning the Voxengo PHA-979, I'd say that that plugin was heaven sent. Stereo micing acoustic guitar and a dedicated vocal mic are now so much easier to deal with and sound great.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  2. dragonhill

    dragonhill Guest

    I used Sound Radix Auto Align for a DI'ed and mic'ed acoustic with great results also.
    I see Voxengo with some other controls like panning etc.
    Is it worth beyond a simple time align and utility to flip phase??
     
  3. digitaldragon

    digitaldragon Audiosexual

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    @dragonhill, Auto Align is awesome! I use that on mic'd drum parts as well to time align them to the overheads.
    I've also tried to use PI, but don't like how it makes adjustments "on the fly". It did some funny things to my dual mic'd guitar tracks so I've stopped using it. Good concept, but I prefer the Auto Align's analyze then set methodology rather than on the fly adjustments.
     
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  4. superliquidsunshine

    superliquidsunshine Audiosexual

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    Flipping phase is an all or nothing affair wheras time aligning with a plugin such as from Voxengo can be adjusted incrementally. I usually use the panning in the DAW.
     
  5. TheMountain

    TheMountain Member

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    @dragonhill sorry been afk for days.. yes weight was an issue to begin with until I pillaged bits from multiple stands to make one solid stand.
    After that I just used snare mic stands as they are shorter, take the weight better and are cheap too.
     
  6. dragonhill

    dragonhill Guest

    The 3 mic video by Wampler only time aligned to make it sound decent.

    This Fredman technique ' uses ' phase cancellation to achieve a thicker tone. When he flips the phase on one of the mics you hear all the ' fizz ' cancelled out. Maybe with the Voxengo you can incrementally adjust the sound.
     
  7. superliquidsunshine

    superliquidsunshine Audiosexual

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    Time aligning is used when one or more of the microphones is closer or further to the source and the sound if the instrument looses important frequencies and whimps out, when phasing knocks out the impact. That is when you need to nudge waveforms and bring it back as best you can.
     
  8. Death Thash Doom

    Death Thash Doom Platinum Record

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    You can bypass the power amp modelling/block and even more useful as it simply offers you MOAR options would be an AB/Y box to take the signal and route it where it needs to go along with where you would like to send it...Yeah amps without a series FX loop I do get frustrated with at times but there are workarounds, Essentially variations on the Dumble Dumblator or whatever may have come before it.
    Not a salesman, Just letting you know that you could make use of it with the RedBox at the same time but separately or despite having not tried it, I reckon it would deliver after the RedBox, It's well worth considering at the price and size plus sheer usefulness IMextremelyHumbleHO.
    I got so frustrated that I went seeking a solution that works with any valve amp head/combo and also good quality solid-state, Heck even some novelty stuff or mini sized digital modelling amp that sometimes just work for something but in order to access the usual options to get it from point a to point b isn't do-able with microphone positioning along, Also I really prefer to get the sound sources as optimial as I can possibly do, So that I do not end up spending seasons in the abyss, Going through every concievable ITB solution plus combinations thereof, Out of the box re-amping then back in or even a very unholy number of combinations of the two, Man, it is just so easy for Me to get my stupid, wandering self-lost in all that. So what I went for is a device by Fargen Amplification that released a few utility devices around 2010/2011 IIRC under the name of Sonic Edge, They have one in at my local atm, So I'll link to it:
    https://www.soundsgreatmusic.com/products/sonic-edge-fxul8tr
    It's one of those things that are extremely mundane it seems to buy/feels so utilitarian instead of like some new, exciting toy that people rave about but with regards to the one problem which you point out, It is a real workaround that delivers. I will have a look to see what magazines and/or people that upload to youtube/gear vlog have reviewed it and if there are any good ones drop them in as links :) I would hope that there would be...Got a few:
    http://www.guitarsite.com/news/musi...world/Ben-Fargens-Sonic-Edge-Meet-Me-YouTube/
    https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Sonic_Edge_Introduces_Fluffer_and_FXUL8R
    http://www.vintageguitar.com/9950/fargen-sonic-edge-offer-fxul8tr-pedal/
    https://www.axeandyoushallreceive.com/product/sonic-edge-fxul8tr
    The H&K Redbox's are really quite good, They were quite ahead of the rest when released, I think it was only really maybe Palmer if memory serves who had their classic mic'd cab speaker simulator version rack unit, They've made a good return of the past 3/4 years which I always like to see, Competition is critical for us to get the best stuff for reasonable shekels and Tech 21 with the Sans Amp but that was a very different method. I'd definitely replace the few I have if they died on me or went missing, The versions I' have are the most recent model (5 IIRC) and Pro versions (which is what the version 4 is even though they didn't call it the version 4/Mark 4, Before it was the RedBox III and now it's the RedBox V, So the "pro" has to be the IV). I had a few older ones that went walkabouts, The v5 is damned good for the money and better than I recall those older models They are what the Radial JDX is but with more options and for less money, Damned difficult to beat a Red Box., Although they aren't identical the JDX/JDX 48 and the JDX Direct-Drive boxes. What I do with those is add some early reflections from usually WizooVerb or Valhalla Room, As that is what they are mostly missing in order to place them inside of a mix, Not much at all is needed, Like 15% - 20% wet at most and no tail at all, Then some cuts EQ wise at unwanted frequencies, Bus off along with the mic'd signals captured and treat them pretty much the same.
    Sometimes it works a treat and ends up a crucial piece of a mix, Other times it doesn't make the cut, Still I'll always maximize my options when I can without sinking into that aforementioned abyss!
    Speaking of H&K, I have a WARP head and before that I got the round, microphone-style base distortion pedal, That Warp Factor (it died on me ages ago and it wasn't exactly a box I couldn't live without haha!), The WARP 7 head is a fairly decent solid-state number which can be used as a power amp if I want the unforgiving, precise and brutality of a good solid-state power amp fed with a valve pre amp (or a good solid-state preamp done proper, Randall being a fine example and Orange's newest Crush models are a range of solid-state amplifiers done properly).
    I've had a Marshall MODE FOUR (numerous Valvestates before that plus a JCM800, JMP-1 rack preamp, a JCM2000 DSL50 which is my favourite Marshall out of all my Marshall's. I'd not buy anything new they've done personally, Blackstar, Laney and Orange in the big names along with Victory in the smaller but really great stuff all wreck Marshall now, Actually I'd say to anyone wanting a great Marshall but new then Dave Friedman is selling hehe/Top notch stuff) with the base 4x12" just enonoursly oversized 4x12" which I liked a lot but at the time space became a real premium and I had to sell it on, I did, however, grab the celestion G12-K100 speakers which at the time were unique to the MODE FOUR and put two inside a 2x12 and the others pair in a more reasonably sized 4x12 with a mismatched pair at the top (vintage 30 and Seventy/Eighty with the G12-K100's on the bottom, They are great speakers/love them, They handle almost all bass gear I have just like my EV's, An EVM12L classic and EVM12L Black label can do with so much ease also (They are just not a speaker that I would consider trying to haul around playing live though, Just way too heavy and four in cabinet would be madness, Yeah if you have a road crew to do all that part it's great but otherwise hell no). The Celestion G12-K100 model is a really good compromise between madness heavyweight magnets and a speaker that is still very efficient, sounds really good and in a 2x12 is moveable/liftable).
    I was very close to getting a Tri-Amp Mk III for an excellent price but the person selling ended up chosing to keep it, I don't begrudge anyone such, He was in a real situation cash flow wise and had his hand forced essentially to sell it, I didn't know Him enough to call a friend, As I would've helped out instead of trying to get a Tri-Amp MK III for a song ;) I've been so close to a Switchblade and a Coreblade on a few occasions but for some reason I decided not to buy a couple of times and the other few I have missed out by a few minutes, I like them, MIDI'd up for control/integrate into any rig easily and one of my all time heroes plays them, Jeff Waters of Anninihilator is a long time user/endorser.

    Anyway, I think I've rattled on enough for now, All the best your way as always, Same to everyone else too, Cheers :wink:

    Dean
     
  9. dragonhill

    dragonhill Guest

    That is a very unique piece of gear esp. with the micpre built in.
    There is the Suhr ISO box
    https://www.suhr.com/electronics/tone-tools/suhr-iso-line-out/

    I used to have EVM 12L's in my Mesa Thiele 1x12 cabs. I switched them out with the EV Forces a few years ago, which weighs about the same 19 lbs, with a little less of the harsher highs. I'm looking into replacing one with an Eminence Deltalite II 2512 to reduce the weight by 12lbs.



    P.S. your Old and New(ish) Dropbox links are broken
     
  10. Death Thash Doom

    Death Thash Doom Platinum Record

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    Cheers for the info on the possible alternatives speaker wise that I shall take note of and check out at some point dragonhill and the Suhr box, I'm familiar with the drive pedals John and his small team have done and the ACE thingy that is a pretty cool little box which I have on my list of things I might pick up and of course the actual guitars themselves, I just could never justify buying one at the prices they command as good as they. Since my local is a dealer that take custom orders, Oh I've been so tempted many times especially when the new builds ordered come in and as I know all them well, I get a chance to try/play on such amazing instruments for a tiny bit of time, Tom Anderson's builds also are at that level with a price to match also!

    Here are fresh links that should work, Thanks for letting me know that they had gone bad or I wouldn't have known dragonhill https://www.dropbox.com/s/0c8umcf6rabe0lw/2005 - Old Band Album.rar?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/731te3sj7ks8zcs/2014 - The Untitled Album.rar?dl=0

    Yourself and digitaldragon are my favourite dragons, It is a pleasure to talk with you both along with others here, I enjoy this forum a lot and that is because of the people, of course, Cheers :wink:

    Dean
     
  11. dragonhill

    dragonhill Guest

    @Death Thash Doom thanks for all the knowledge. Mooer and Joyo among others are producing amazing pedals for not much money. I never used pedals but I'm ' starting ' to think about buying my first pedal in a few decades.

    Have you messed with wet/dry or WDW rigs?

    Just downloaded your tunes and listened to a few ' untitled ' songs of the newer ' untitled ' album.
    Very heavy guitar tones.
    What is your normal recording chain?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2018
  12. Death Thash Doom

    Death Thash Doom Platinum Record

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    I do apologize for not being able to reply sooner, I had a ton of IRL things that required my full attention, So I haven't been able to do more than have a couple of youtube videos on in the background really for a good solid two weeks.
    I'm glad that you have found something useful in my ramblings, It makes talking about our own approaches, choices...etc. so interesting I find, I can usually pick up something to give a try in my own workflow just talking with peer's as on this thread.

    I agree completely, Mooer, Joyo, Hotone, Valeton, Behringer And Recently TC Electronic and more.
    I would not mention any names unless I've tried and really liked or have bought already.
    I'm actually going to go for one of those mini JOYO BantAmp heads, The Zombie model which is the higher gain option, It is not far removed from Orange's Micro Terror size wise and shares similar design, Or better stil if you have heard/used the Orange Micro Dark which is the highest gain variety of valve-amp that Orange do currently (Dual Dark models is where the look and voicing come from). It is just a sole 12AX7/ECC83 in the preamp section and a small, class D solid-state power amplifier. Control wise there is a clean sound available which I think uses the volume control only (but I could be mistaken on that), However the clean channel/sound is far from the reason why I am grabbing one! It is for the really quite veratile but unmistanenly modern heavy lead/high-gain channel, That is where it is at with the tiny little thing. It has a really sparse 3 knob control set on the panel, Just a sole gain knob, a sole tone shape or more akin to a Mid-range contour-type knob which isn't so different from Blackstar Amp's ISF (Infinite Shape Feature) control aswell as Orange's Dual Dark and Micro Dark's shape control for sculpting a voice that suits you and the guitar and speaker cab used and then a sole master volume, Cranked it sounds damned heavy/build to chug. IIRC it features bluetooth for something but another feature which makes this a practical no-brainer for Me is the inclusion of a series FX Loop all present and correct as it should be, So that I can take the pre amp and pipe it into anything I like power amp wise for example.
    It sounds far too good than it or anything else has any right to do so at such price!!!
    Another really cool and even smaller than the JOYO BantAmp which I have and use are Hotone's Nano Legacy range, These are mini solid-state jobs through and through, I have the Heart Attack that is based on the Mesa Dual Recto's Red/Modern Channel and the Thunder Bass which is based upon the Ampeg SVT classic. They have put out 5-watts,Through a 2x12" or 4x12" they sound really damned good and fully maxed out (cabinet or speaker choice pending) far louder than it appears they'd even be capable of close to managing. Again on these palm sized treasures of amplifier head both feature the all important series FX Loop which opens up the possibilities much further

    I fully advocate picking up some pedals when you want to and if I can be of help before you buy then i'd be more than happy to. Not that I have tried everything and likely miss out on some stuff, However if I have first hand experience I do not mind sharing my thoughts at all. As I am not a gear snob and I don't really get along with gear snobs, I do buy expensive stuff if I like it just the same as I buy regular priced gear and even what gear snobs look down upon as I am able to get sounds out of the stuff that work for me/my wants and needs. If the piece of gear is pricey but within reason for what it is and what it is capable of delivering results wise then I'll dig deep but I always try out what I am able to, As that is how I have come across some great stuff over the years, Hope that it continues too ;)

    When you say WDW setup, Do you mean a three amplifier rig with the cetnral one clean apart from using whatever channel on it from clean to face melting then either side is what makes up a pair of amplifier's that run wet, With things such as stereo chorus, delay and reverb...etc? If so then I have but unlike for example Brian May with a trio of AC30's, I do not have three of the same amplifier heads or combos, So I've not been able to get a result that puts out a big, stereo sound but with plenty of clarity and definition due to the central amp. I think I'll have a go with some different combinations I have nowadays which I didn't when I've played around with changing/expanding my rig.
    If I have got that totally wrong and misunderstood what you mean't then I'd be really interested to hear about it :)

    I do go for the heavier stuff and thanks for taking the time to listen, I'd be happy to go through what gear I have used and usually used, How in-depth specific would work for you dragonhill? I can do lengthy or try to keep things more compactt in order that it does not feel like reading a poorly written essay with dodgy grammar all over the place!

    Again, I do appologize for not being able to reply sooner, It was out of my hands, That is what happens when you are a single, fulltime parent of two and they do not see their Mother, So my family are really great and help Me out so much in order that I'm still able to stay in the game part time, However I do not take liberties of the help, I couldn't as I was brought up to be responsible and always do my fair share of anything. They are both teenagers now whilst I'm not in my mid thirties just yet...I really did do the whole children and career thing in the polar opposite direction that anyone with common sense seems to, Typical of Me really.

    Cheers and look forwards to hearing from you when you get the chance, All the best your way and to all as always :wink:

    Dean
     
  13. dragonhill

    dragonhill Guest

    That entire Joyo amp line does sound great on many utube videos.

    For WDW all you need is a stereo tube power amp for the WETS since all the tone comes from the main amp.
    It is a glorious 3D sound esp. if you have something like this:
    http://www.soundsculpture.com/switchblade
    to control it all.

    Please describe your mic 'ing setup in as much detail when you have time.
    I'm experimenting with a ' extremely low volume closet recording ' setup so any tips are appreciated.

    Currently I've got two 57's in a Fredman 45 degree setup plus an extra feed to a bass ampsim via a TC 1128 eq in the efx loop.
    https://audiosex.pro/threads/the-merits-of-having-an-eq.34134/
     
  14. bluerover

    bluerover Rock Star

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    Great videos. But, I don't agree with the guy in the video that a Pro quality mic preamp isn't worth it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  15. Axleman

    Axleman Newbie

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    Yes... always try to cop someone else sound. Whatever. If it flies, good. If it doesn't, you're doing it for love That's good too.
     
  16. dragonhill

    dragonhill Guest

    I would look at it as just another way to get a decent sound. The guy did mention he is not looking to sell his high end mic pres any time soon.
    All those single 12AX7 amps: Orange, Joyo, Hotone, Peavey etc. have efx loops which is great for my super quiet recording setup.
    we are only talking about mic'ing techniques here, a trade of information.
    Do you have anything informative to add?
    A revolutionary way of recording guitar perhaps......or just copying someone else?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2018
  17. superliquidsunshine

    superliquidsunshine Audiosexual

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    Maybe not revolutionary, but throwing up a mic aiming at where the pick hits the string and blended into whatever you are getting elsewhere can help accentuate the attack on a specific track to help it break out of the pack. Also, the same can be used to nice effect panned opposite of a regularly mic'd cab or any other capture for a nice change of texture in a song. And...

    Have you ever tried using a de-esser to get rid of superfluous squeaky sounds some guitarists make if they have sloppy teqnique? There will always be some sqeak, but sometimes there is just too much of it and it gets in the way.
     
  18. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    I switched to using 1 sm57, and 1 sm7b
     
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  19. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    I think they mean in the context of recording a guitar amp, the mic is getting a signal over 100db (unlike spoken voice which around 86db)
     
  20. dragonhill

    dragonhill Guest

    i have added an unprocessed wimpy piezo PU to a high gain sound. It definitely adds note definition.
    Never used a de-esser.

    One of my 57s is transformerless....a poor man's sm7 :)

    Do you mic one speaker with both mics? I'm contemplating adding a 2nd speaker to my setup.
     
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