@blue, I got your point that rms is not exactly loudness, don't worry.

I never used any specific rms or peak value to get the balance of my mixes. Neither in analog mixing, nor in digital. I just take care that nothing is clipping, regardless of the according rms or peak value, adjust the faders for the aimed balance and that's it. And I'm doing this for [cough]ty years now.

Yeah, I know you're not the only one who's saying this, but there's no scientific reason for it. And the bit resolution is important because, like I said, with FP you can go way above -10dBFS even in the master, no prob, try it yourself.

No, sorry if you got me wrong. I said you're (partly) wrong in these points... I didn't want to be offensive or sound aggressive, just wanted to make these points clear.

Again, no, you don't have to. Club level is much higher than this and therefore I recommend to go higher occasionally and, as I already said too, going down to the hearing threshold will give you some additional information about your mix.

It's just that I have problems with statements like 'x equals y' and 'you have to' without any scientific proof. If you made good experiences with this or that, that's ok, if you can recommend something, that's fine too, but don't use the imperative as long as you don't have a proof for it, please, that's all.

Again, don't meant offensive or aggressive, everything's fine here.

 

Try this with an Hi-Hat in relation to the other instruments and show us the result. All you will hear is "tshhtshhtshh". This will not work. You will have to pull down the Hi-Hat by a lot so it fits.

The fundament here is that an vu-meter is not (and there is simply no discussion about this) displaying the loudness (also not of any sense) in any relation to instruments in an other frequency spectrum. It may adequately shows the dynamics but not the loudness of a signal and this is a very important difference.

As No Avenger correctly said:

But the human ear hears high frequencies way louder than lower ones. So how shall this work?
There are also a lot more factors that have an influence about the loudness of a signal but there is no need to discuss this here.

And if you say this (what is not wrong in the first place) why do you use a tool that has an integration time of 300ms? What is the point of leaving the transients out of the capturing range? This is just inaccurate.

The point here is, that we have to understand where this value (300ms) is coming from. It is not coming out of intention of the engineers. They did not said "we need an 300ms integration time". It simply comes out of the fact that those analog mechanics which are going on behind the scene are simply not able to go any faster without breaking anything. If it would have had an integration time of an PPM back then - like we have today - the vu-meter would never had to be invented.

And all of those "super YouTube mixing gurus" that still use an vu-meter do unfortunately simply stuck in the 80's and trying to spread out their nostalgic nonsense.

 

Last edited: Apr 1, 2019

It's different in this case,because you want (extreme) distortion,so you overdrive your amp.You're looking for creative distortion.

 

Yes I know,it's not an obligation to be at -6dBFS on the master,but it's a good level.

Yes,sorry it's me who don't choose the right words,I don't speak English very well.
You don't have to mix at 80 dB but it's the normal or recommended level for listening.Of course you can listen at the level you want,and even it's or it can be (I HAVE TO choose the right words,because you're watching out for!) useful to listen one track at different levels because the PERCEIVED balance can vary according the level you're listening.

 

Last edited: Apr 1, 2019

I meant all or almost all my tracks are at around 0 dBVU pre fader.And after that I mix my different tracks,or I adjust their levels with the faders of my DAW's console.

Guys,you are playing with words here.You understand what I said,why are you trying to overrule me?

 

Yes you're right there,I was mistaken about

,the problem is our hears that are more sensitive to some frequencies.

 

I said in one of my previous post that VU meters are not accurate especially for transients like drum sounds,and mixing with VU meters doesn't mean you can mix without Peaks meters.

Yes you can mix only with Peak meters,but I mix with VU meters AND Peak meters because I find this workflow better.

And I don't listen "youtube gurus",that's how I do because of my 19 years of experience with "electronic" music,synthesizers samplers and DAWs.I do,I mix like that because I find it better for me.

I'm not saying I'm the best seasoned engineer,it's just my experience.

Everybody can do how he thinks it's better for himself,no problem for me.

 

Last edited: Apr 1, 2019

Although you didn't quote me, I just wanted to asure you that this was pretty obvious (to me). It's the only way this approach makes sense (meant positive).

I see no real problem in mixing without peak meters, even in the digital domain. With 0VU = -18dBFS hardly any sound will reach 0dBFS and with 0VU = -24dBFS you'll be completely safe, I think. Some compressor's minimum threshold may not be low enough, but this is easy to solve.
So there's neither a need to use VU meters nor one to not use them. It's a free choice, isn't that great?

 

How to start a mix?

Well if you want you can use a VU Meter.

But if you do not want to use a VU Meter. Start a mix without it.

PS: Do not get me wrong I think this discussion is very valuable and important. And I thank each and every one of you for taking your time and writing this. The knowledge you share here is so valuable.

 

I might be misunderstanding ya'll but in a daw if you mix at or above/remotely close to the 0 then you are not adding a limiter or some sort of mock mastering process? The headtoom in the mix realm is for that mix bus final touch. If you are above 0 on your master in 32bit float doesn't your limiter sound like a decapitator?

 

Yes.

If you can't adjust the limiter's input, yes.
But, please, bear in mind

So we are not talking about mixing or mastering, just preparing.

 

Just do it man and follow your aural instincts.Thats the best way to start a mix.A fixed method is boring.