@foster911

Use the names when/where you need them. To compose or just to think (conceptualize/analyze) about music, you can do it all by numbers (the intervals).

Since you use piano roll, you already have a tool that's much more precise and non-ambiguous than staff notation. Don't try to bring extra work to where it's not needed, forget that table.

 

DuskWings, I am not looking to pick a bone with you but dude you took my posting completely on the wrong side of the tracks. Or you totally failed to understand "what" I stated. I didn't feel I needed to write a fricking book to be understood but I guess that is what I should have done for you at least.

You should have read my entire post and maybe you would have "fully" understood. But seeing as you didn't...

Some really interesting facts:

1) The Rolling Stones - Keith Richards never studied theory. In fact he learned a few guitar chords from his Grandfather and then took it from there. No formal studied theory. Same thing with Ronnie Wood and the rest of the Stones.

2) David Gilmour (whom many consider to be one of the greatest guitarists ever). Zero theory in the "trained" or "schooled" sense. Mostly self taught. Same with the rest of Pink Floyd. Same applies for the bands Genesis and Yes (to a degree).

3) Carlos Santana self taught. Jeff Beck ditto.

4) Stevie Ray Vaughan self taught (his brother Jimmie too). Buddy Guy, self taught. Come to think of it most all of the great blues guitarists were self taught.

5) Frank Zappa self taught.

6) Johnny Cash self taught. Willie Nelson self taught. Many country musicians are. Oh and BTW you ever hear of the Nashville Number system? Check it out - it works.

7) There are current artists and bands who have made it big time who are self taught as well. Coldplay, U2, Phish to name a few. There are many more.

8) How about that super control freak Bruce Springsteen, totally self taught, and certainly one of the greats.

9) Eric Clapton self taught.

10) The Beatles self taught.

11) Led Zeppelin self taught.

12) Jimi Hendrix self taught.

Are you catching my drift yet?

Historically the music industry is littered with numerous self taught musicians who have made it big time without any formal music training.

You don't know that there are many bands and musicians out there who are not music theory educated? Do you not read any music mags or interviews of musicians?

How could you NOT know these facts?

BTW none of those folks, especially Zappa ever played "three things over and over" as you stated.

Your statement "Oh and, all the great u talk about with no music knowledge woulld be begging in a corner of a street if some producer/arranger/hired musician handn t fixed their ideas turning them into something that the audience could appreciate." is completely full of shit and a great example of your not "knowing" - see the above musicians I gave as examples - guess what? Most of those are control freaks who ceded nothing to any hired musician, producer or arranger.

Guess what? None of them are, as you say "begging in a corner of a street" as all my examples have made it big time. Fuck, for that matter there are street musicians all over NYC or New Orleans (and other cities around the world) who are making a fine living on "the street", "in the subway" or "on a street corner".

Did I ever say to not learn music theory? Nope. I spent years learning theory but as I stated once you know what you need to know you really don't spend much time thinking about it. Admittedly you never stop learning. Once you HAVE that education you simply utilize it just like speaking any language. Yep, you learn some new things here and there. I never stop learning as I thrive on knowledge. That being said, I don't sit down with my guitar and think "what theory should I use for my musical idea" no not at all and neither do many in the rock'n'roll, pop, country, or metal worlds. They just sit down and play something that inspires them and then they develop that into a song utilizing their knowledge. Now classical and "some" jazz musicians, yes they are very big on theory, but again not all (Charlie Parker, John Coltrane).

I spent a couple days watching this thread and I mainly saw you and the person who started the thread knocking each other for pages and pages. And what was the point? Just to have a smack-down? Kind of childish IMO.

I thought about your reply to my post and I was going to just let it go but then I thought no the facts need to be stated.

So once again, no offense to you or anyone else.

Read my initial post again ---> I never advocated for anyone to not learn music theory. I merely stated the real world facts.

Cheers!!!

 

this is 2015 if u haven t noticed, relying on luck to come out with some bluesy crap works only for those who feel like cheating people with the excuse to be inspired by classic rock.
Ah, Carlos Santana only wrote a song and a half in his whole career,Led Zeppelin had john paul jones who studied music and was the arranger in the band,JImi hendrix spent his days at electric ladyland recording everything he strummed and drove the bad and the producers crrazy bacause he couldn t explain what he had in mind ( when he recorded third rock from the sun the rest of the band wanted to kill him),i could go on but the list is too long,even the beatles wouldn t have gone far without George Martin,all the people u named either made simple music or had smart producers behind them.And the fact t hat someone is self tought doens t mean they dont have a musical education,it simply means they din thave it in a school.Frank Zapa was self taught but he studied a lot.

 

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Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2018

of all the stupid things uve posted so far this is the worst

 

Kouros, I thought we'd agreed that piano roll and staff notation were inherently the same ? Are you sure you can read music ? As you must be the only proficient sight reader in the world to suggest using piano roll.

Only one of them allows for very easy transposition and the other one doesn't. One of them defines modulations and key changes, the other one doesn't. One of them is used by 90% of musicians who don't play guitar or drums. (Never heard the joke: "How do you make a guitar player turn down, put some sheet music in front of him".) The other one isn't. Anyhow i'll let you work that out...

Also in intervallic terms the #9 and other altered tones are worth remembering. Here we go agin with enharmonic thing...

If I were you foster i'd just stick to Dr Bops method.

I know more about audio than I do about theory, yet many people think along the lines that it's only for people who want to study classical or read music. Often people think, "Why do I need theory ? I am the best! I can here all the harmony and rhythms in my head." These people soon end up being humbled... A good theoretical knowledge actually makes the learning process easier.

@BigEmptySky

I'd class myself as self taught... It doesn't mean that I haven't learnt any theory. Paul McCartney went through a massive classical music phase which was actually at a music school. Let's not forget that George Martin was a very big input into The Beatles records...

The rolling stones on there other hand went straight to the source, or should that be sauce... They were playing in muscle shoals and with Muddy Waters and BB King. I bet they learnt a thing or two during the time they spent with them and the guys at muscle shoals...

Some good quotes about music in this interview with the pianist Bill Evans on youtube
Copy and paste for enlightenment.

/watch?v=xix9KVnPxPY

 

Are you sure you can read what is actually written instead of your own assumptions?

Why the fuck do people keep relating everything to "someone NEEDS TO READ THIS"? Do you think you can have more precision (time, articulation, dynamics, etc) with staff than piano roll? You're wrong. Yes, I can read music. Again, go sight read somewhere else, I didn't even mention sight reading so stop changing the context of what I say.

What a bunch of bullshit. Certainly, this must have to do with your necessity to link everything to sight reading.

You go alone, I don't have that irrational need. I prefer to understand things instead of just regurgitating stuff without knowing why.


It's really hard to believe that this other topic is also from this forum: https://audiosex.pro/threads/music-theory-key.20891/


It's also hard to talk about stuff that it's hard to grasp since it questions people's "dogmatic" views... even harder when people still won't read any of the info that has been posted.

It feels like this all the time:

1: "Here's a new kind of cigarettes. These will do no HARM to the human body, in fact they even provide vitamins!!"

2: "Yeah that sounds like bullshit... If the old ones really do any harm, why so many millions are smokers? And if those new cigarettes really do anything different, how are we supposed to get cancer now, smart guy?"


This is how this whole thread went, basically.

 

This whole thread is just like trying to show hexadecimal/binary/etc to a nine year old who feels pretty confident with his numbers (decimal) but is far from understanding how all that really works.

Nevertheless, he will defend that you're wrong and that there's no way that 15 could also be 1111 or F.


We have proof that there's "intelligent life" regarding these matters (https://audiosex.pro/threads/music-theory-key.20891/) and now I understand why none of them touched this.


Yes, I know nothing about music and I only write contradiction. It's a fun way of making friends.

Out..

 

we got it kouros, we r all stupid exept u

 

Seems this thread has been haunted! needs an exorcism. Who's the priest? Come on father!

 

yeah this thread needs an enema...

 

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Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2018

Looks like The Matrix. I'm better off by muscle memory. Hasn't failed me yet.

 

24 pages? foster911 you certainly know how to create popular topics for discussion

 

This is the longest thread I've seen on here.

How about this.

Memorize your naturally occurring TRIAD spellings (....and later, the 7th chord spellings)

Example :

C E G / C# E# G# / Cb Eb Gb = Maj = 1 3 5
D F A / D# F# A# / Db Fb Ab = Min = 1 b3 5
E G B / E# G# B# / Eb Gb Bb = Min = 1 b3 5
F A C / F# A# C# / Fb Ab Cb = Maj = 1 3 5
G B D / G# B# D# / Gb Bb Db = Maj = 1 3 5
A C E / A# C# E# / Ab Cb Eb = Min = 1 b3 5
B D F / B# D# F# / Bb Db Fb = Dim = 1 b3 b5

(remember ..... 1 3 #5 .....is "augmented", but doesn't occur naturally "on the white keys" ;-)
.....so, to make a min triad aug, you'll need to raise the 3rd by 1 half-step, and the 5th by 1 half-step.

Example :

C E G = Maj
C E G# = Aug
C Eb G = min
C Eb Gb = dim

D F A = min
D F# A = Maj
D F# A# = Aug
D F Ab = dim

Now pick a random note :

G#.........well I know that G B D is Maj.....so, G# B# D# is Maj too.

so.....

G# B# D# = Maj
G# B D# = min
G# B D = dim
G# B# Dx = Aug


B D F = dim
B D F# = min
B D# F# = Maj
B D Fx = Aug


**** Simple, and sound fundamentals like this go a loooong way. You don't need to get into any crazy theory. Quick tools you can reference quickly in ur brain. This is one example - and, this covers many intervals

Learn how to convert these spellings to Maj, Min, Dim, and Aug.

Once you do this, things will become easier. Here, you have 3rd, 5th covered - Flip those, and you have 6th, and 4th too!

Example :
C --> E = Maj 3 ....and a Maj3, flipped, = min6 (........E up to C = min6)
D --> F = min 3 .....and a min3, flipped, = Maj6 (.......F up to D = Maj6)
C --> G = P5 (perfect 5th (...5th)) and P5 flipped = P4 (..4th)

P4 flipped = P5
m2 flipped = M7
dim5 flipped = aug4 (....***same interval, different spelling for direction)
M2 flipped = m7


There.....you've covered your intervals, yay!

Unisons, 2nds, 7ths and Oct are easy anyway.

 

Last edited: Nov 12, 2015

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Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2018

This is my chord chart showing the relative root, 1st and 2nd inversion positions. Bear in mind I transpose everything to C = 1 (tonic) for major, or A = 1 (tonic) for minor.

..... 2-2 . / . 2-3 . / ..3-2 ...(key spacing)

1.. 1-3-5 / 3-5-1 / 5-1-3
2.. 2-4-6 / 4-6-2 / 6-2-4
3.. 3-5-7 / 5-7-3 / 7-3-5
4.. 4-6-1 / 6-1-4 / 1-4-6
5.. 5-7-2 / 7-2-5 / 2-5-7
6.. 6-1-3 / 1-3-6 / 3-6-1
-----------------------
7.. 7-2-4 / 2-4-7 / 4-7-2
1.. 1-3-5 / 3-5-1 / 5-1-3

For standard scales only play the white keys.

Method
1. Select key
2. Transpose keyboard
3. Convert chord progression to relative chord movements ( e.g. G Am B C = I ii IV V = 1 2 4 5 or A E F#m D = I V vi IV = 1 5 6 4 etc)
4. Consult chart for note positions. I use inversions to get a closer grouping of the notes.
5. Add any chord variations or extensions, e.g. sus or 7th etc.

Note: I am not a keyboard player, just someone who likes to compose quickly in any key .

 

Last edited: Dec 8, 2015

Who remembers this thread? We started from here and after having a long journey, we came back here again.

I mean identifying intervals. This time by ear training.

What to do with these intervals?

 

Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2016

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Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2018