How to make a 3-band minimum phase Frequency crossover ?

Discussion in 'Mixing and Mastering' started by Plainview, Aug 29, 2020.

  1. Plainview

    Plainview Rock Star

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    basically I want to process each frequency range individually with my own plugins like adding different compressors for the highs and lows , adding a transient shaper and sculpting the transients and many sound design applications I can think of , this is what I tried and I wonder If anyone can help me :
    1- using linear phase filters , this was the best sounding one , I could do steep slopes with no issue , but the pre ringing always sounded weird and the latency is unusable
    2- using minimum phase filters , a weird distortion happens at the crossover frequency whenever I use a slope above 24 db/oct
    3- Linkwitz riley filters , I read that this is the best solution to maintain the phase coherency But I couldnt get this plugin to work correctly , I cant figure the proper routing
    http://www.vstplanet.com/News/09/Dual Linkwitz-Riley Filters.htm
    the way I routed it is I made high pass and low pass and the bandpass consists of duplicate of the low and high pass inverted + the whole signal

     
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  3. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

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    Make it simpler. If you want to use a filter like this, make two copies of the track:
    1. track only highs so, use Lowcut at 6kHz (as an example)
    2. track only mids, Highcut at 6kHz, Lowcut at 200Hz (again as an example)
    3. track only lows, Highcut at 200Hz
    Then check if all three sound like the untreated track (which would require a third copy :winker:).
     
  4. Plainview

    Plainview Rock Star

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    Weird phase issues happen at the crossover frequencies , it doesnt null this way with the original , but the phase inversion method nulls with the original
     
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  5. Qrchack

    Qrchack Rock Star

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    You're unlikely to find anyone able to help you in this forum. If you're trying to do this for your own use in mixing, there already exist ready to use solutions for multiband transient shaping and more. See Kilohearts Snap Heap or iZotope Alloy for example.

    Doing this on your own with multiple tracks, complex routing through multiple tracks like you seem to be doing, is likely to cause you tons of issues due to things like plugin delay compensation.

    Unless you're programming your own plugin, you're overthinking this. If you are programming a plugin, then you've come to the point where you learn there is no perfect method and you have to decide what compromise is acceptable to you. Welcome to the real world, everyone has to pick their compromise.

    Edit: using multiple tracks with filters on them like No Avenger suggests is guaranteed to not null because the filters are not linear phase. Thus you're summing some frequencies that exist in two copies, each of them with a different phase shift. This cancels out and you get weird things happening at the crossover point.

    Even if you used linear phase, the pre-ringing is a difference from the original signal, so it will not null either. There's probably no way to do multiband processing that nulls perfectly. There's also probably no reason to use multiband processing, most of the time this should be fixed during the recording/synth design stage. If you insist on multiband, you just have to live with the fact that crossovers will never be perfect.

    Edit 2: you also pretty much never need a slope above 24dB, and the steeper the filter, the more side effects it introduces. These are usually not shown on your EQ plugin
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
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  6. Plainview

    Plainview Rock Star

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    its not about being perfect I understand that it has limitations , I am using it as a creative tool not a mixing tool as it opens a door for alot of creative processing and its possible because plugins already have this functionality but its limited to the plugin itself , the pre ringing in linear phase mode is inverted and balanced when the mid band is introduced using this routing so it actually nulls with the original , although it appears again upon any processing but If you avoid steep slopes its not that bad the latency is a bigger problem
    here is the routing , try it and tell me if it nulls
    Capture.PNG
     
  7. Qrchack

    Qrchack Rock Star

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    There probably are some plugins that allow you to do this. For Waves there's their StudioRack, Soundtoys have their own as well, Snap Heap lets you add plenty of little blocks as you see fit, I think some things like Bluecat patchwork or something could also easily let you do that. I use Studio One which has both frequency and channel (left/right) splitting built into the DAW.
    As mentioned. The steeper the slope, the harder it is to make it stable and without its own artifacts, or...
    ... adding latency, which allows you to do thing that would be impossible normally. Linear phase is one of these things.
    Nice, frankly I don't care enough to play with this myself. Just saying you're chasing a non-existing problem. There are more than enough ways to do what you want in multiband. It's fun to play with it, I get it. But really, nobody does that and it's faster and easier to just use several different plugins with multiband processing than mess around with splitting your track into 9 tracks, 6 of which being just inverted to get a bandpass - effectively a worthless waste of space and mental clarity while working.
     
  8. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

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    You are funny, just use JS 3-, 4-, or 5-Band Splitter, nulls perfectly - but I don't know how steep the filters are.
     
  9. stefodis

    stefodis Producer

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    Given the picture you sent, i guess Reaper is your DAW of choice, but if it's only for sound designing you could also consider giving Studio one a try :
    their track implemented "splitter" does what you ask not badly at all IMHO, and then a little more (with parallel, channel and frequency splits, and macro assignements) :

     
  10. Plainview

    Plainview Rock Star

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    not steep enough :rofl:, However I found this guy

    who made exactly what I wanted with a nice gui
     
  11. MrLyannMusic

    MrLyannMusic Audiosexual

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    Didn't wave recently release something for this type of work? my apologizes as i don't recall the name, did some digging no luck if i come across it i'll post it here.
     
  12. MrLyannMusic

    MrLyannMusic Audiosexual

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  13. COVID-X

    COVID-X Ultrasonic

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    nice nice nice!!!!!!!!!
     
  14. bluerover

    bluerover Audiosexual

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  15. KungPaoFist

    KungPaoFist Audiosexual

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    Are you talking about something like this?


    edit: video attached
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  16. junh1024

    junh1024 Rock Star

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    It looks like you have REAPER installed. Are you using the builtin 3bandsplitter /fft_split JS? Hvae you tried witti's 3bandsplitter https://stash.reaper.fm/v/25168/js_plugins.zip ? Unsatisfied with reaXcomp? What's wrong with latency? REAPER handles latencies of 1 second fine.

    Maybe what Qrchack was trying to get at is, yes you can hear artefacts, but after you re combine the bands, you might not hear it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  17. 11Fletcher

    11Fletcher Platinum Record

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    Best Answer
    Not sure if it was mentioned here (I didn't saw it), you also got Gaffet from Klevgrand wich split your track in 4 band, and you choose the band you want to mute/listen.
    Basicaly you send your sound in 3 (or 4) different bus and put the plugin on each, mute the band you don't want and apply your fx (good thing is that you can apply the FX before the split which can be usefull for distortion for exemple). What I like about this plugin is that it's really easy to use and every plugin communicate with each other, so if you change the crossover on one, the others will follow, and also you can set up to 8 different crossover (usefull for sound design if you don't want to have the same crossover on every plugin, or to try different crossover)
     
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  18. Plainview

    Plainview Rock Star

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    Thank you so much , this is exactly what I wanted
     
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